S800 alternative props

[DennyR]

Come on now Denny, the Zenmuse is great for short term stabilization I won't argue that, but it gets loads of drift long term. Maybe in very simple moves with minimal acceleration it is fine, but with more complex moves with lots of lateral acceleration the horizon is all over the place.

You can literally see the roll axis drift in this video just from a simple pan input at :45 seconds.

Take a look at this video....it is all over the place

for the record NEX-7 footage will not cut in OK with EPIC, that is just silly. The zenmuse is great for what it is, but you are going a bit overboard.

However your own system will now come under threat I'm sorry to say from yet another Chinese manufacturer. Zero UAV will be selling a high sensitivity Zen Style camera base plate IMU to integrate with their so far so good MR system. I expect super fast servos will follow.
Watch that space........

If people put the roll axis on the wrong stick then you can expect user input problems.

I have no drift issues at all. none what so ever. End of Story. Some people are not using it correctly and that may be where you are coming from.
I have had several productions where the Nex-7 was cut to the 5D and the Epic. It rather depends on who it doing the cutting etc. Our edit facilities are state of the art.
What determines the quality is the refresh rate of the frames, resolution can now be modified without loss. A good pro aerial camera operator does not move the camera at any significant rate so the lower bit rate would not show anyway.

If you tell me what this mysterious acceleration is that upsets the Zen then I will go out right away and shoot something for you....

 

[blbills]

I have no drift issues at all. none what so ever. End of Story. Some people are not using it correctly and that may be where you are coming from.

I'm interested in knowing your secrets. I'm with Tabb, I personally own a GH2 Zen and it drifts all over the place even when it's just sitting there.

 

[DennyR]

I'm interested in knowing your secrets. I'm with Tabb, I personally own a GH2 Zen and it drifts all over the place even when it's just sitting there.

When you boot the system it will drift about for a few seconds as it does a self calibration. Once you start to activate some inputs it should be perfectly stable. sometimes I have to check it because it is so stable it looks like a still image.

I guess I'm gonna have to do a vid on how to balance, or at least check the balance of the Zen. I am not sure that DJI will approve of people playing around with this but if it doesn't work for you then you must do something.....I think that the drift issue you are seeing must come from a bad INITIAL calibration. As I never had this issue it is difficult to know what is wrong there.

I think when DJI release the Zen's big brother It will be very difficult for anyone else to compete....

 

[copterstudios]

Denny can you PM me? You box is full! thank you

 

[JDM66]

Hi,

I've been waiting two weeks adapters!

I have sent email but no answer

I have XOAR 15" x 4

I hope that the pitch is not too small

I will inform you of the result

jdm66

 

[Capo Creative]

Hi,

I've been waiting two weeks adapters!

I have sent email but no answer

I have XOAR 15" x 4

I hope that the pitch is not too small

I will inform you of the result

jdm66

My adaptors took awhile to get to me, but i did receive them. Just stay patient, they are worth it!!

 

[ChrisViperM]

I guess I'm gonna have to do a vid on how to balance, or at least check the balance of the Zen. I am not sure that DJI will approve of people playing around with this but if it doesn't work for you then you must do something.....

I think I am not the only one who would appreciate a "How To..." video going more into depht...

At least many thanks in advance.....

Chris

 

[Capo Creative]

I found this very helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jv0Xc67beE0

I think I am not the only one who would appreciate a "How To..." video going more into depht...

At least many thanks in advance.....

Chris

 

[jes1111]

I'm becoming increasingly confused about the Zenmuse. All the initial reports said everything was "brilliant" etc. There was the whole crazy issue of "supported lenses only" and so on.

But, though it has taken time to come to light...
- the Zenmuse does lose the horizon in certain circumstances
- you can adjust the balance of the camera and therefore fit an alternative lenses

Okay, so it's no great surprise that the stabilization system is not completely infallible. But, having just watched the above posted video (for the first time) it seems to be remarkably easy to adjust the balance for a different lens. In fact, it's fairly obvious that with only a few small changes, they could have made the camera mounting arrangement "universal" such that it would be suitable for any appropriately-sized camera with any lens that physically fit within the space available. If the decision to market/support it in this restrictive "one camera one lens" form came from DJI's marketing people then it's just plain dumb. If it was an engineering-driven decision, then it's a really curious wimp-out and why did the marketing people fold so easily?

And Denny - you're sounding increasingly like you're trying to help market the Zenmuse, the S800 and DJI in general.

I just don't get it

 

[jffry7]

I used to think Denny is also like that even way back in arducopter. But every time I dispute with some technical know how he gives more definitive explanation. And for some one who built his own frame I think Denny is not really trying to market dji. Ohh...I like that F1 frame Denny designed but sadly not in production and I think shipping it to my place will cost me hahah..it just makes sense to use dji than fiddle with things.our maybe its just my opinion.don't get me wrong dji is far from perfect. But so its most of fc out there even with mk they do release fw with glitch.

I think the main point of this all is there is no perfect multi, everything you must do a little something to make it work better. Getting cinestar+mk will not guarantee smooth flying machine.it still needs to be tuned down.

Now somebody might ask why there are some many complains on dji. Imho, its pure volume of prior who bought them.but if you compare the ratio I think they are pretty close

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jes1111]

I used to think Denny is also like that even way back in arducopter. But every time I dispute with some technical know how he gives more definitive explanation. And for some one who built his own frame I think Denny is not really trying to market dji. Ohh...I like that F1 frame Denny designed but sadly not in production and I think shipping it to my place will cost me hahah..it just makes sense to use dji than fiddle with things.our maybe its just my opinion.don't get me wrong dji is far from perfect. But so its most of fc out there even with mk they do release fw with glitch.

I think the main point of this all is there is no perfect multi, everything you must do a little something to make it work better. Getting cinestar+mk will not guarantee smooth flying machine.it still needs to be tuned down.

Now somebody might ask why there are some many complains on dji. Imho, its pure volume of prior who bought them.but if you compare the ratio I think they are pretty close

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

I understand and agree with what you're saying, jffry7 - but you've kinda diverged from my post. I'm not complaining about DJI per se, and I'm only passing a light comment on Denny's enthusiasm for the S800/Z15. I'm simply seeking a full understanding of the Z15. It's easy enough to research here and elsewhere the full pros and cons of the DJI flight systems or the MK gear, etc. It's easy to find all about the RSGS's troubled history. But, curiously, the real information available on the Z15 is sketchy. To some extent this will be due to the fact that on the whole it is undoubtedly a very good system - the best currently available if you happen to want a flying NEX or GH2. The problem is that real, in-depth reviews of these systems don't appear (like they do for new cars, new cameras and even new washing machines). So, for a potential buyer it's actually difficult to discover everything you might want to know before committing the large sums of money these toys cost.

 

[jffry7]

Oh don't get me wrong. What I meaty in short is that most product (gimbal) will require care to make it work zenmuse is no exception but there is a big but, imho its the only one that almost good to go right out of the box.no need to worry about servo jitter, gear ratio and all that.just makes sure your can is balance on the gimbal.

Cons, its not meant for heavier setup, wait for zenmuse big brother.oh another con is price and lesser versatility to adapt other camera.but for me I spent twice that but only got half its result.and not to mention I don't have to always stay on my work bench trying to figure out things.

I have to she with you that there are lesser info about zenmuse. Lets put it this way wkm got a lot of Do's and don't's cause of different everyone and issue.zenmuse got little complain to almost no review cause most are happy (I think) I know I am. Although I only had it for 2 weeks.

I guess in the end I didn't answer your question haha...I do hope other guys will contribute but I think this will be hijacking Denny's adapter thread. Maybe on rcg zenmuse thread?

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

 

[jffry7]

I was balancing the graupners prop when I noticed that most of the prop I got from altigator are damaged, most of the center hole were chipped off specially the bottom. I was able to balance some of them that minimal chipping but I dont feel its safe and may cause more vibration or worst catastrophic prop failure..

View attachment 7022View attachment 7023

How are the Xoars props thinking of 14x5 is the pitch just fine or is APC still the better option?

 

[DennyR]

I'm becoming increasingly confused about the Zenmuse. All the initial reports said everything was "brilliant" etc. There was the whole crazy issue of "supported lenses only" and so on.

But, though it has taken time to come to light...
- the Zenmuse does lose the horizon in certain circumstances
- you can adjust the balance of the camera and therefore fit an alternative lenses

Okay, so it's no great surprise that the stabilization system is not completely infallible. But, having just watched the above posted video (for the first time) it seems to be remarkably easy to adjust the balance for a different lens. In fact, it's fairly obvious that with only a few small changes, they could have made the camera mounting arrangement "universal" such that it would be suitable for any appropriately-sized camera with any lens that physically fit within the space available. If the decision to market/support it in this restrictive "one camera one lens" form came from DJI's marketing people then it's just plain dumb. If it was an engineering-driven decision, then it's a really curious wimp-out and why did the marketing people fold so easily?

And Denny - you're sounding increasingly like you're trying to help market the Zenmuse, the S800 and DJI in general.

I just don't get it

I just don't like seeing people waist their money on all of this crap that is out there. Far too many people have set themselves up as manufacturers who don't have a clue. anybody can strap a servo to a moving surface, but will it stabilize correctly ....NO

When you say that the Zen looses it's horizon. Do you have a Zen or is that third party information you are giving out? do you have any experience with pro video production? I feel that any information should be based on actual experiences and shared in a way that cannot be misleading. I have worked with the best aerial camera equipment in the world for many years and I would say that the Zen is the only system that comes even close to what is expected at that level. I have no connections with DJI at all but if you were to come here and learn how to direct and shoot pro. footage then I would be supplying you with a Zen. right up to a R14.... Talk about the blind leading the blind. People manage to screw up with a Standard Zen straight out of the box and then complain about the product. If you let those kind of people loose with the final set-up then DJI will be dealing with claims for burnt motors/electronics and bent frames etc. I think it was a very wise decision by DJI to make the product dedicated for a specific camera and lens. The choice of lens was a significant direction to take, in which makes the customer use that which is likely to work for them. I had a goofy guy walk in here the other day and wanted me to put a 250 mm lens on his S800/Zen.

Only a trained technician can work on a full size pro. electronic gimbal. and only a licensed engineer can fit it to an airframe. This stuff is not for the enthusiast, it is for people who want to do pro work.

I know of at least 5 people who said to me my Skyline is crap and I am going to get a HF. I said don't do it. I wont say it, but you know what is coming next......


If I sound grumpy today it because of the pathetic performance of Mclaren today, They have lost the best driver in the world and that is what they deserve.

 

[jes1111]

When you say that the Zen looses it's horizon. Do you have a Zen or is that third party information you are giving out?

You know I don't have a Zen, Denny - and I'm not knocking it - I'm just searching for real information. Yes, it's third party information - from a few posts back in this thread!

I think it was a very wise decision by DJI to make the product dedicated for a specific camera and lens. The choice of lens was a significant direction to take, in which makes the customer use that which is likely to work for them.

... and it's exactly this which, to my mind, excludes it from the category of "pro gear". It's like the "idiot modes" on a camera - that kind of hand-holding by the manufacturer clearly indicates the target market.

 

[Ghostrider]

If I sound grumpy today it because of the pathetic performance of Mclaren today, They have lost the best driver in the world and that is what they deserve.

Those Red Bulls are looking strong. When you say Mclaren have lost the best driver, did you mean Alonso or Vettel? Just kidding. I know you meant Hamilton.

Back to the subject of the S800. I do own the S800 and Z15g. While I don't think it is perfect, I do think it works very well out of the box. The vibrations are a bit worrisome and the gimbal does have some odd initialization behavior. That being said, the system masks those problems very well. I also think DennyR's prop adapters will go along way to reducing the vibes. I just received mine and will be trying them in short order.

Here are some issues I have seen:
The minimum yaw rate for the WK-M needs to be a bit slower. When operating the Z15 in orientation lock mode, the yaw is too fast.

The Z15 video converter does not work with NTSC, only PAL

The props do lend themselves to vibrations either from their construction or aerodynamics. I occasionally get harmonics at different RPM's. Yes I have balanced them on a magnetic balancer in all orientations.

Initialization on the Z15 is not consistent. It does seem to correct itself after a short time.

The landing gear need to be retractable.

 

[Ghostrider]

What if any changes have you guys made to the WK-M stability settings after changing props? More specifically the APC 14x4.7 and the Xoar 15x5

 

[DennyR]

Are you using expo on the yaw? I am using 50% yaw and Pan.

The less input you have to give it the better the final result IMHO.

I don't want to steer your S800 set-up because you may find something that we all missed....

 

[Stacky]

I think one important thing to consider is the varying levels or markets of pro work. There is pro work out there which is happily served by cameras such as the nex5 etc and pro work which needs to be served by red epics and other such cameras.
So for customers who are going to be using the internet as their primary and possibly only source of marketing for their products or services cameras such as the nex5 hung on a zenmuse will be a perfect fit. For example golf courses around the world trying to attract players from all over the world to their courses will be able to get high quality footage of their courses from guys using nex5 type cameras. The use of red epics in this portion of the aerial photography market would be a bit of overkill if the end usage is for the internet.
Guys shooting for film etc will need a different level of quality so using the term pro as a blanket description of all areas of the market place wont work.

With respect to the issue of perfect horizons one thing I do wonder about is the target audience and their perceptions. The Ecilop quad produces very nice footage although its horizons are not absolutely perfect but it gets away with this by having a very smooth and gentle movement on the roll axis. The people who worry the most about technical issues such as perfect horizons are usually ourselves rather than the customer (depending on the section of the market).

Visually and aesthetically for me horizons with a small amount of gentle smooth movement are not too much of an issue for most videos I see people producing. Jeff and Cedar for example are always putting out lovely quality footage without using roll axis stabilization. Is a little drift on the roll axis a big issue if kept in context of the section of the marketplace and customers needs and end usage?.

 

[DennyR]

Stacky

I think this horizon issue is a bit of sour grapes, If I were making commercial camera mounts I would be knocked sideways by the level of advanced technology that DJI are using. However, even if the horizon did move a fraction over a few mins. so what. The camera operator is supposed to be flying the camera all of the time and he would see and correct this.

As most TV broadcasters are using 720 HD these days one could say that even 1080 is overkill. Yet a lot of commercials are shot at 2 or even 4k to create a sort of status. I read recently about a scene test of all of the top cameras with some 5D's and below thrown in the mix. They were all edited by a top company and then a panel made up of directors was brought in to blindly evaluate the results. The top scorers were not the top cameras. Hacked GH-2's did well.

If you are shooting for a "coming to a cinema near you" production then yes 4.5 K red epic is the tool for the job. Not too much of that work outside of Hollywood I'm sure.