Photohigher skyline rsgs

DennyR

Active Member
Actually guys the jitter is only one small part of the bigger problem, fix that, and then we still have to deal with the high degree of lag on the tilt axis which is not quite so bad on the roll. Perhaps Cedric can help us on this one? The firmware is far from right and even though the jitter is gone on my example there is still some slight noise in the servo that only stops when the other axis is removed.

However even if you raise the gain as high as it will go without oscillation on the pitch axis it is still far to slow and that is with just that axis connected. (free from background noise). It improves with a backlash spring fitted. We still have some work to do before this can be considered as acceptable.
 

nicwilke

Active Member
OK what you have failed to understand is that the IMU measures the angle relative to it's movement in space, it applies a correction signal that must not be corrupted by any other source if it is to point the drive system in the desired position. If you place external loads on the servo that interfere with the PID algorithm it will not return the correct resolution. i.e. it will keep jumping from one position to another. The pid algorithm controls how fast the servo starts and slows down as it approaches its final position it does not know how to handle a friction brake. This is all irrelevant until you understand the reason behind mass balancing. Newtons third law as I recall.

I didn't 'fail' anything, I'm only confused as to what you are saying. The PID algorithms should be negligible since there's no compensation for camera weight in the RSGS. A gopro camera would be less resistance to the servos to move around than a 5DmkII with an L series lens no? Please forgive me if my questions seem terse, I'm just confused since these gimbal and servos are quite agricultural in design compared to the new stepper based models coming out. I don't understand how damping would be any less tainting to the algorithm than weight on the camera tray.
A heavy camera will effect the rotational inertia no matter how centred, effecting the algorithm as if it has a brake on its axis.
 


DennyR

Active Member
Oh I get it, we are all wrong about this, I'll tell DJI, STK, ACS, Ultramedia, Cineflex, Bob Nettman and John Doyle that we don't need to worry about newtons third law, all we have to do a stick a brake on each axis so it cant move and then everything will be stable relative to the base it is sitting on. Yeah thats a really cool idea. PID algorithms are not needed as they only have negligible effect ( well there's a few thousand hrs. down the drain for a start). We don't need to worry about vibration attenuation because it cant move Woopee what a great solution you have there. I would keep that to yourself though or everybody will be doing it. I guess the only thing that you did fail was to read all of the previous analysis posts. I don't suppose it occurred to you that a heavy camera does not actually move, it is the surrounding camera mount etc. that does the moving during stabilization with all camera mounts not just PH.

Oh well that livens up my otherwise boring day:tennis: Thank God there's a pub opposite
 
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ChrisViperM

Active Member
Apart from all the technical details, fails and fixes for this specific product, I had a look at the "gimbal market" in general, and and it should make me actually lough and cry at the same time:

Photohigher RSGS: simply speaking...does not work. I slowly suspect that the design of the board is no good, and now they try to tweak the software to overcome layout troubles.

Photohigher HERO 2000: Should be the competitor for the Zenmuse and would be one step away from the servo stuff...but no sign on the horizont when it will hit the market.

DJI Zenmuse: Performance wise on of the best products on the market...but restricted to certain cameras AND to be only used with WooKong, which I don't trust at all....and nowhere avalible...out of stock...out of stock...out of stock...

PicLoc 3x: Problems similar to Photohigher RSGS, maybe for other reasons, but also very difficult to buy at the moment.

Freefly Gimbal Stabilisation: Watching the footage avalible could be a good product, but also no sign on the horizont when avalible...I put my hope on this one, since I own a Cinestar 3-Axis gimbal

Mikrokopter FC 2.1 Gimbal stabilization (with hacked firmware for GH2): Not too much feedback at the moment, but apperantly works ok for slow movement in the air.

HoverflyGimbal: So far it looks like this system is working well, at least on the HoverFly FC, but not avalible at the moment....back order....back order...apparentely now shipping.

This situation might change any day....or only within the next couple of month...who knows. For hobby-noobs like me it's not a big problem, but if you you earn your living with that stuff you would need nerves of stainless steel to cope with that crap.
As a business man I don't understand what's going on in the heads of these companies....and it is always the same stupid game: They show some prototypes and some videos how outstanding their product performes, leading people to the assumtion that the product development is basically finished and just needs a little more time to manufacture...then nothing happens....potential customers start to put pressure on them, 'cause they believe the product is finished. As a result many products which are a far cry away from being properly developed and thoroughly tested hits the market....and then the first complains come up and they try to fix all sorts of problems under enormous pressure, while loosing reputation every day a bit more.
All this guys can be more than happy that the market is in their favour and people are buying just about everything, always in the hope to get product which actually works....but in the end they all sell dreams and illusions.
This is only my personal opinion and might be different to a lot of other people (especially sellers of these products)...and it might be a new market with a lot of unknown factors and so on....but the business principles on how to make any product a success are older than me, and they have always worked....no sign of that in the gimbal market.

Chris
 
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jes1111

Active Member
ChrisViperM:

I totally agree with you - a frustrating and dangerous marketplace at the moment, especially for those who "just want it to work" for their work. You missed out at least one in your list - OpenPilot CC3D: which (in testing) is shaping up to be a very capable gimbal controller, but also rather hard to get hold of ;)

But this is Cedric's support thread for the RSGS. Cedric has consistently shown us the good side of this market - honesty, openness, commitment, patience, etc. and I think everyone should commend him for that. PH on the other hand, need a sharp slap! After plenty of demonstrations of bungled product launches from elsewhere, they still managed to fumble and drop the ball! I'm repeating this (as if it was needed!) in the hope that they don't feel inclined to do it again, especially with the Hero range - I'd really like to see that succeed because it should chase away once and for all the misguided notion that hobby servos are an effective mechanism for a multi-thousand dollar AP device!
 

ChrisViperM

Active Member
ChrisViperM:

I totally agree with you - a frustrating and dangerous marketplace at the moment, especially for those who "just want it to work" for their work. You missed out at least one in your list - OpenPilot CC3D: which (in testing) is shaping up to be a very capable gimbal controller, but also rather hard to get hold of ;)

But this is Cedric's support thread for the RSGS. Cedric has consistently shown us the good side of this market - honesty, openness, commitment, patience, etc. and I think everyone should commend him for that. PH on the other hand, need a sharp slap! After plenty of demonstrations of bungled product launches from elsewhere, they still managed to fumble and drop the ball! I'm repeating this (as if it was needed!) in the hope that they don't feel inclined to do it again, especially with the Hero range - I'd really like to see that succeed because it should chase away once and for all the misguided notion that hobby servos are an effective mechanism for a multi-thousand dollar AP device!

You are perfectly right, and Cederic is a great person who knows how to run his business and make his customers happy. I just wanted to show that there is not only problems with Photohigher on the market.

Chris
 



ChrisViperM

Active Member
ChrisViperM:

....because it should chase away once and for all the misguided notion that hobby servos are an effective mechanism for a multi-thousand dollar AP device!

Just found this:



...That should solve the servo problem, just could not find a lot more info on mama Google...
 
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DJIFlyer

Member
I didn't 'fail' anything, I'm only confused as to what you are saying. The PID algorithms should be negligible since there's no compensation for camera weight in the RSGS. A gopro camera would be less resistance to the servos to move around than a 5DmkII with an L series lens no? Please forgive me if my questions seem terse, I'm just confused since these gimbal and servos are quite agricultural in design compared to the new stepper based models coming out. I don't understand how damping would be any less tainting to the algorithm than weight on the camera tray.
A heavy camera will effect the rotational inertia no matter how centred, effecting the algorithm as if it has a brake on its axis.

This was my logic too so I applied it and it worked well for me. When I noticed that PH had already wedged a black plastic space between the frame and the camera tray, which was clearly there to create resistance, I just thought that this would be a better idea and would not wear with time. As I mentioned several pages ago: remove that black plastic spacer, fire up you AV300 and RSGS and watch the whole thing as it the jitter builds upon itself and goes completely out of control. If you put the spacer back in it stops (to some degree if you have tightened your mounting screw just right). With the rotary damper you don't have to worry about adjusting the screw just right right. If the damper has just the right amount of resistance you can simply count on it to do its job each time. This simple fix worked very well for me. It works with my GoPro, my 5D Mark 2 and my T2i.

One day I was out in the noon sun on a 109 degree day in LA on my hands and knees trying to dig a hole under the sidewalk in front of my house so that I could pass a piece of PVC pipe through there to setup sprinklers in this area that otherwise has no water available. I thought I was going to drop dead of a heart attack... and that was 30 years ago. A 5 year old Mexican boy with a white hat and chrome 6-shooters stopped to watch me... and finally said; "Why you don't just do what WE do?" I said, "Okay smart guy what do YOU do?" He showed me that they take a piece of PVC, duct tape it to the garden hose, turn on the water and let the water do the digging as it bores its own hole through the dirt, under the sidewalk and then comes out the other end. 5 years old. It worked. From that point on I learned that anyone can have an idea that might be worth listening too. Even a moron.
 

nicwilke

Active Member
Oh I get it, we are all wrong about this, I'll tell DJI, STK, ACS, Ultramedia, Cineflex, Bob Nettman and John Doyle that we don't need to worry about newtons third law, all we have to do a stick a brake on each axis so it cant move and then everything will be stable relative to the base it is sitting on. Yeah thats a really cool idea. PID algorithms are not needed as they only have negligible effect ( well there's a few thousand hrs. down the drain for a start). We don't need to worry about vibration attenuation because it cant move Woopee what a great solution you have there. I would keep that to yourself though or everybody will be doing it. I guess the only thing that you did fail was to read all of the previous analysis posts. I don't suppose it occurred to you that a heavy camera does not actually move, it is the surrounding camera mount etc. that does the moving during stabilization with all camera mounts not just PH.

Oh well that livens up my otherwise boring day:tennis: Thank God there's a pub opposite

Rather than mock people, perhaps put your manners back in and explain/share your experiences. I'm new to this game, but I'm not stupid. I'm only asking you these things with the utmost respect and I've certainty not said you are wrong. I didn't think that the movements of the servos are 'realtime' and while algorithms are being processed (please advise of processing speed) the delay will apply Newtons 1st law: Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. (Speed of servo delay would certainly apply force to camera as the multirotor moves.) The mechanical nature of gimbal movement has lag time. Yes, quicker its becoming, but it's still not realtime. We are only going to see better stability when we get faster angle compensation with faster processing of measurements, faster reaction time with faster motors.

Better go have a beer mate, chill out, this is all healthy discussion, not an argument.
 

nicwilke

Active Member
@DJIflyer
I respect your ideas. I will see how I go tomorrow evening with my gel strip mounting, and perhaps post a video if successful.
I'm all for sharing ideas and problem solving together in a friendly manner. :)
 

jes1111

Active Member
This was my logic too so I applied it and it worked well for me. When I noticed that PH had already wedged a black plastic space between the frame and the camera tray, which was clearly there to create resistance, I just thought that this would be a better idea and would not wear with time. As I mentioned several pages ago: remove that black plastic spacer, fire up you AV300 and RSGS and watch the whole thing as it the jitter builds upon itself and goes completely out of control. If you put the spacer back in it stops (to some degree if you have tightened your mounting screw just right). With the rotary damper you don't have to worry about adjusting the screw just right right. If the damper has just the right amount of resistance you can simply count on it to do its job each time. This simple fix worked very well for me. It works with my GoPro, my 5D Mark 2 and my T2i.

One day I was out in the noon sun on a 109 degree day in LA on my hands and knees trying to dig a hole under the sidewalk in front of my house so that I could pass a piece of PVC pipe through there to setup sprinklers in this area that otherwise has no water available. I thought I was going to drop dead of a heart attack... and that was 30 years ago. A 5 year old Mexican boy with a white hat and chrome 6-shooters stopped to watch me... and finally said; "Why you don't just do what WE do?" I said, "Okay smart guy what do YOU do?" He showed me that they take a piece of PVC, duct tape it to the garden hose, turn on the water and let the water do the digging as it bores its own hole through the dirt, under the sidewalk and then comes out the other end. 5 years old. It worked. From that point on I learned that anyone can have an idea that might be worth listening too. Even a moron.
LOL - and I thought 5-year-olds could only embarrass us oldies with their computer skills ;)

I think that your damper solution is absolutely valid - to fix the gimbal, not the gimbal controller. As Denny says - if hard-mounting the RSGS is passing vibration into the sensors then it makes sense to prevent that first, then see what can be improved on the gimbal itself. Denny's solution needs some work to establish the right level of isolation to overcome the problem without introducing new ones - one of the keys there is a lead washer to create inertia and mass: that solution may not appeal to all.

In an ideal gimbal, the mechanical arrangement of each axis must be "stiff" (in the engineering sense), i.e. rigid and without any radial or axial play whilst still having very low friction. Any friction present must be overcome by the servo before any actual movement can take place. This means 1) a delay and 2) a jolt in the system as the friction is overcome and the rotation accelerates more than was originally intended. Any play in the system (a.k.a. looseness, slop, backlash, etc.) must also be "taken up" before any actual movement of the axis can take place. Unfortunately the PH gimbals are poorly designed in this respect - as far as I know, neither side of the pitch axis (for example) has any pre-loading on the bearings or special bearing arrangement to limit/remove radial and axial play. The servos have (unavoidable) backlash in their gears and the belt drive has (unavoidable) backlash. The net effect of all of this is that the camera is not rigidly fixed in its orientation - it can "wander about" either side of its nominal position by an amount equal to the sum of all the backlash in all the components. And it's easy to see - with the servo holding any particular position, try moving the camera very gently - it will be able to move (in just about every direction, but rotation will be the most obvious). This unconstrained movement will show up in video, particularly at longer focal lengths. It's one of the big advantages of the Zenmuse, which (by its mechanical design and the absence of any gearing between the motor and the camera) will have (almost) zero backlash: it is a "stiff" structure end-to-end.

The primary reason for the appearance of belt drive on this type of gimbal is because it will tend to mask the backlash in the servo (which is far and away the worst offender). The belt tension creates a radial bias force on the axis - in other words, a frictional force that needs to be overcome before that axis can rotate. This will mask, to some extent, the backlash in the servo but it won't reduce it in any way. Note, too, that its effectiveness at masking the backlash will vary according to how tight it is fitted. Furthermore, of course, it also introduces its own backlash to the system. As with any gearing, the belt drive also has the simultaneous effect of reducing the drive speed and increasing the torque by the same proportion. Increased torque is helpful but reduced speed isn't!

This backlash has another nasty trick up its sleeve - if your axis measurement system (in this case the RSGS) is able to "see" that unconstrained movement, i.e. it senses the axis/camera has rotated when actually it hasn't (it's just "flopped" from one side of the backlash to the other) then it thinks "ooh! I must correct that!" and tries to do so. Through the miracle of mathematics, this can quickly become a meaningless oscillation as the system bounces from one end of the backlash to the other (and beyond, thanks to momentum) and the controller battles to "correct it". High speed oscillation... a.k.a. jitter. The only way to stop the maths misbehaving like this would be to filter out tiny movements, in other words, reduce the resolution of the system. The maths can't tell the difference between backlash and rotation of the frame in the air.

Fitting a rotary damper is supplementing the "masking" of backlash on that axis - as such it will be effective in preventing backlash-induced jitter (and should allow you to have the gain higher so you have a more responsive axis). You want a low resistance, just enough to stop the axis "flopping" and not enough to hold the servo back too much when it does try to rotate the axis. As you say: more controllable and constant than a friction washer (or adjusting the tension of the belt). There are adjustable bi-directional rotary dampers available, of course - that would be ideal to fine tune the effect. But, at the end of the day, the backlash will still be there - a better mechanical design of the gimbal as a whole would remove the need (for the RSGS or any other controller).
 
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koptercam

RED Epic or ARRI Mini? Both!
What I did was to turn up a drive flange and then make a lead washer the same dia. this was sandwiched between the IMU and the flange with something called evo rubber (some small pads) this then formed a torsion dampener. I'll post some pictures later but I think you should get the idea.

Thanks a bunch for all your useful info Denny. I'm in the process of replicating your torsion dampener, and this might be a silly question, but can I use a stainless steel washer instead a lead washer? will it cause any form of interference?

Cheers!
 

DennyR

Active Member
Hi Koptercam
I only used the lead to add some mass to the imu. All of the solutions that we have heard about are showing some degree of improvement especially with regard to the jitter problem and the backlash. At the end of the day we still need some work on the code before we can say we are there or almost there. I am about to try 1.1.7 thanks to Cedric. fingers crossed that this is a further step.
 

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