Bartman
Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Roo,
I'm going to be running those motors with Hobbywing Pro 40A ESC's. So far on the bench they run great. FIrst flights by next week, maybe tomorrow if all of the set-up goes well later tonight.
Bart
KDE Direct has added Multi-Rotor Heli motors to their lineup
- Thread starter Bartman
- Start date
Roo,
I'm going to be running those motors with Hobbywing Pro 40A ESC's. So far on the bench they run great. FIrst flights by next week, maybe tomorrow if all of the set-up goes well later tonight.
Bart
kloner
Aerial DP
kde is going to offer esc's good to 8s very soon. I am currently running the same exact esc's from altitude with the same exact motors as you Roo..... What are you doing to see this loss of sync? Earlier in this thread i had mentioned those exact exc's with these exact motors and the answer was it should be no problem.....
Yesterday i built out a disco pro with the 4014 380,,,, they are 100 grams less a piece,,,, super tight motors, sound awesome
Got some dope info from KDE yesterday, they have a u7 buster coming down the pipes deemed 5215,,, stay tuned
View attachment 17621
Yesterday i built out a disco pro with the 4014 380,,,, they are 100 grams less a piece,,,, super tight motors, sound awesome
Got some dope info from KDE yesterday, they have a u7 buster coming down the pipes deemed 5215,,, stay tuned
View attachment 17621
Attachments
fpvroo
Member
Hi kloner,
thanks for giving me some hope
this is what they do
it doesn't happen unless you very rapidly change throttle (from almost 0% to 70-90%) under load (15 inch prop) with 6S
The powertrain might never get into that scenario, due to the total cost of the equipment ($10-15k copter) and the weight I'm concerned about it
I always play it as safe as possible
tried the kde motors with Multistar OPTO ESC 45A simon K (which worked great 100+ flights on my other 10kg octo with axi motors)
and they perform flawlessly...
The 5212 look interesting, but probably quite heavier do dissipate the heat.
I first looked at using u7 motors, but the weight put me off
But even the 4014 are rated at 1065W+ and 200 degrees
the u7 are rated 1180 and 180 degrees, but I reckon they will run cooler due to the design and weight.
But from monitoring ESC and Motor temperature after landing, it's usually the ESC's that would concern me...
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fpvroo
Member
Hi Bart,
sweet is there a HV hobbywing ESC? Yeah easter gives some time to built and test
DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
Bart if you still have some stock turnigy plush would you mind testing them as well? I'm thinking of swapping out my 2814 for the 4014 380's. Patrick said he hadn't heard anything negative but has not tried them himself.
fpvroo
Member
Oh man that sounds like expensive "Red" splinters
Mhh that was my thinking... I bench tested the U7 as well and it lost sync on the Multistar ESC.
Can't wait for the KDE ESC's, my guess they are working exactly on the same Problem...
Fast response means huge current spikes and potentially loss of sync... because these motors have serious torque to speed up and slow down huge props
yeah these ESC's have a hard job...
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GotHeliRC
http://gothelirc.com
Are you able to change timing on your esc? If I remember right, using HobbyWing firmware with Iflight 4114 (22poles), I have the same problem. Switching to high timing did somewhat almost fix it 95% for me. But start up sometime still have issue. Finally I switch to Iflight SK 40Amp HV and everything work perfect, but I don't know which version of SK it is though.
Bartman
Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Hi Bart,
sweet is there a HV hobbywing ESC? Yeah easter gives some time to built and test
actually, the only go to 6S which is what I'm using but I guess you're looking for higher. sorry about that.
Bartman
Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
I think I do and so I think I can. I'm still working on a product review for the 4012XF-400 and so I can run one with the Turnigy ESC on 6S. i'm also starting a new Hexa build using the same motors so that will be posted sometime today.
bart
DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
Are the Hobbywings the same as Plushes? cant remember which were the same. If we could get an ETA on the KDE ESC's I'd just hold out for those.
KDE Direct
KDE Direct, LLC.
Hey Guys,
The commutation errors being experienced are hitting the Internet more and more with all brands across the board and Maytech ESCs, as well as a series of other "SimonK" based units. It's not a direct reflection of the KDE Direct XF motors, as this also occurs with T-Motors and other brands, using higher-pole count designs to reach higher peak-efficiency. Right now, the limitation are the controllers and here's some insight I have to share:
1. When the controller is asked to make a sudden throttle increase (such as from 25% to 100%) in a very short time-period, this results in extremely high amperage "micro-bursts" that rip through the controller. Micro-bursts up to 2000A! are not uncommon in this scenario and cannot be seen on data logs (must use a visual oscilloscope), but luckily, the capacitors are there to protect the MOSFETs and soak-up these massive peaks, which only occur for a very short period of time and luckily, for the most part, do not cause harm. To combat this, controllers utilize a time-delay (measured in microseconds) to help reduce these peak loads and not trip built-in Current Limiting protection circuitry. What you may be witnessing is not an issue with commutation with the motors, but the trip of the Current-Limiting occurring in the low-cost controllers common on the market. These can often be Disabled, but then the risk of damage to the ESC is raised - especially for low-cost units.
2. Commutation rate is limited by the quality of the components and the speed/quality of the primary processor. Many of the low-cost controllers use very cheap components and processors that are limited to their abilities. With a high-pole count motor, the speed of the commutation rate is increased and if the processor cannot keep up with the fast load changes, it will result in the loss of proper operation as you can see in the video. I highly recommend to anyone with a quality system to not utilize low-quality ESCs - they are the backbone of the power system and there's a reason the prices are so low - cheap components and poorly-optimized control algorithms = poor performance.
3. Another aspect is the control-algorithm - SimonK is an "open-source" code, meaning any company can use it for development, and royalties are to be paid to the original designer. Many companies have simply stolen the code and then tweaked it to their own liking, so one brand with "SimonK" does not mean the same algorithm as another with "SimonK". Let alone the hundreds of different revisions and tweaks, the reality is - you don't always know what you are going to get, let alone, if the same brand is re-flashed with different versions. So, one brand with SimonK may work just fine with high-pole count motors, while another will not - they are NOT the same basic codes. This is all up to the integrity and honesty of the company using it, as to how good the code truly is and whether or not it is properly optimized.
Long story short, we are asking low-quality controllers to do very important functions. We are soon releasing our own series of controllers optimized for the XF Brushless Motors that use our own proprietary algorithms and true 600Hz-refresh compatibility, and the highest-quality components we're able to source. We'll do our best to price these competitive on the market, but in many regards, the cost in materials just to make them is higher than some of the controllers are sold for on the market! So, there is a dramatic range between brands in quality, and we hope to provide you guys the best and hassle-free equipment.
The commutation errors being experienced are hitting the Internet more and more with all brands across the board and Maytech ESCs, as well as a series of other "SimonK" based units. It's not a direct reflection of the KDE Direct XF motors, as this also occurs with T-Motors and other brands, using higher-pole count designs to reach higher peak-efficiency. Right now, the limitation are the controllers and here's some insight I have to share:
1. When the controller is asked to make a sudden throttle increase (such as from 25% to 100%) in a very short time-period, this results in extremely high amperage "micro-bursts" that rip through the controller. Micro-bursts up to 2000A! are not uncommon in this scenario and cannot be seen on data logs (must use a visual oscilloscope), but luckily, the capacitors are there to protect the MOSFETs and soak-up these massive peaks, which only occur for a very short period of time and luckily, for the most part, do not cause harm. To combat this, controllers utilize a time-delay (measured in microseconds) to help reduce these peak loads and not trip built-in Current Limiting protection circuitry. What you may be witnessing is not an issue with commutation with the motors, but the trip of the Current-Limiting occurring in the low-cost controllers common on the market. These can often be Disabled, but then the risk of damage to the ESC is raised - especially for low-cost units.
2. Commutation rate is limited by the quality of the components and the speed/quality of the primary processor. Many of the low-cost controllers use very cheap components and processors that are limited to their abilities. With a high-pole count motor, the speed of the commutation rate is increased and if the processor cannot keep up with the fast load changes, it will result in the loss of proper operation as you can see in the video. I highly recommend to anyone with a quality system to not utilize low-quality ESCs - they are the backbone of the power system and there's a reason the prices are so low - cheap components and poorly-optimized control algorithms = poor performance.
3. Another aspect is the control-algorithm - SimonK is an "open-source" code, meaning any company can use it for development, and royalties are to be paid to the original designer. Many companies have simply stolen the code and then tweaked it to their own liking, so one brand with "SimonK" does not mean the same algorithm as another with "SimonK". Let alone the hundreds of different revisions and tweaks, the reality is - you don't always know what you are going to get, let alone, if the same brand is re-flashed with different versions. So, one brand with SimonK may work just fine with high-pole count motors, while another will not - they are NOT the same basic codes. This is all up to the integrity and honesty of the company using it, as to how good the code truly is and whether or not it is properly optimized.
Long story short, we are asking low-quality controllers to do very important functions. We are soon releasing our own series of controllers optimized for the XF Brushless Motors that use our own proprietary algorithms and true 600Hz-refresh compatibility, and the highest-quality components we're able to source. We'll do our best to price these competitive on the market, but in many regards, the cost in materials just to make them is higher than some of the controllers are sold for on the market! So, there is a dramatic range between brands in quality, and we hope to provide you guys the best and hassle-free equipment.
Motopreserve
Drone Enthusiast
KDE:
Thanks so much for the informative post. It's nice to see folks chime in who are behind the scenes making these thing actually spin.
Two questions:
1. While I understand that you are soon going to be selling what sounds like a quality product, are there any currently on the market that you feel are decent for these high pole count motors (or at least have good experiences with in your own testing)
2. Do you know a formula to determine advance? I am having a hard time finding anything online about how to choose the best starting point for ESC advance settings for high pile count.
Appreciate your input.
Thanks so much for the informative post. It's nice to see folks chime in who are behind the scenes making these thing actually spin.
Two questions:
1. While I understand that you are soon going to be selling what sounds like a quality product, are there any currently on the market that you feel are decent for these high pole count motors (or at least have good experiences with in your own testing)
2. Do you know a formula to determine advance? I am having a hard time finding anything online about how to choose the best starting point for ESC advance settings for high pile count.
Appreciate your input.
KDE Direct
KDE Direct, LLC.
Hey Guys,
Chris McVey took a quick video of his SkyHero setup, running prototype KDE Direct XF 55A+ controllers (up to 9S capable), and a high-pole count (24-magnet poles) KDE4012XF-400 brushless motor, to demonstrate the ability of high-quality controllers to properly operate and rapidly-control the motors under significant loading. Keep in mind, this is running direct-throttle control through the Futaba FASST system, so this is also worst-case with a direct-control latency of only 8ms - so even beyond the speed of Flight Controller algorithms.
Chris McVey took a quick video of his SkyHero setup, running prototype KDE Direct XF 55A+ controllers (up to 9S capable), and a high-pole count (24-magnet poles) KDE4012XF-400 brushless motor, to demonstrate the ability of high-quality controllers to properly operate and rapidly-control the motors under significant loading. Keep in mind, this is running direct-throttle control through the Futaba FASST system, so this is also worst-case with a direct-control latency of only 8ms - so even beyond the speed of Flight Controller algorithms.
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Motopreserve
Drone Enthusiast
Should I take this as the KDE are going to be the only appropriate ESCs for high pole motors?
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DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
Is it safe to say that the 3520, being a 12/14 pole motor, would be better suited for the ESC's that most of us already have?