Hello from Western Massachusetts

[jbrumberg]

We fly, we crash, and we repair. We figure it out. We fly we crash and we repair. We figure it out. I guess that describes the history of flight. We are in some crazy way "pioneers". We are all in this together. "We" can be individual and/or collective. I would still be on the ground without the help that I have received from others here and at other sites.

 

[COMike93yj]

We are a collective!!!! LOL....sorry for the Sci Fi Ref......I am a HUGE fan of the genre so call me strange

I do certainly believe that we are kind of pioneers in the field....many have gone before us and have helped bring TONS of knowledge to us but this isn't like racing buggies or flying foamies. LOTS of areas to get smart in and try things out that work or do not.

It is REALLY nice to have a good CORE of folks in the community. We have that here at MRF! There are the seasoned VETS on the site and the bumbling Newbies like ourselves. As with anything this stuff takes time and research/application. It stinks that it costs us ALL in the proverbial "pocket" but we will ALL be better served by continuing on!

JAY/SCOTT.......I will be up in Freeport Maine for the first two weeks of July. Maybe we can arrange for a Meet/Greet when I get out there for that!

Cheers,

Mike

 

[mbowser]

At least you guys got out there, I'm considering waiting a while longer to pop my "outdoor quad cherry" until I have more training time hovering above my bed with pillows lining the floor around it . I'm really worried about yaw control as that's the part I don't think I have dialed in properly. While my tiny brain is ok at pitch, roll, and throttle control (for 10 second hovers in bedroom), as soon as I throw in yaw control my brain short circuits and I drop the thing to the bed (my wife tells me my multi-tasking limit is 3). I am hoping that once I get it outside I'll have more room to maneuver and be able to react better.

-matt

 

[Motopreserve]

Outdoors will help as well as the larger quad"s handling. The mini pops any direction with incredible speed. In my experience, the larger ones are more mellow and can be tuned even more mellow.

 

[jbrumberg]

I got too overconfident and yaw caught me today, more than the other settings. The Tx control basics are the basically the same for little/big quads. It's one's reactions to the physics of size and mass. The little guys coot right out, and when they hit something they are light weights on the impact side of things- usually not a lot of damage or none. The bigger quads its a function of size/mass (inertia) and speed. Once one of these bigger units gets moving it wants to stay moving and when it hits it has some kinetic energy punch to go with it. My quad actually got moving pretty quickly. Control/response can be addressed to some degree with programming of the Tx and set up. I will need to practice on this. I am doing a "cerebral forensic" of what happened which I will post once I can put it in words and numbers. It does appear the frame, motors, ESC's, and props are OK. The velcro tape on the battery/ battery plate with the battery strap held the battery securely throughout. I already have a basic landing skid upgrade cobbled together. The show must go on.

 

[Motopreserve]

Great attitude Jay. I was a little down today after the crash so short into my flight time. But I keep telling myself it's part of the learning process. Also keep reminding myself that I put this quad together to learn. And that's just what I'm doing. No shame in knowledge!

 

[jbrumberg]

No shame in crashing either, Scott. 5 minutes- you beat me. I would rather go out in a "crash and burn" than live safely, but in fear. One does not learn or really live by "living within the box". An exception may be teaching in 2 way (multiple way) interactional situations. I am no masochist, I wish that I had not crashed (extremely hard landed:strawberry , but I think that I learned from what happened, and so did you today. Baby flights for both of us.:black_eyed:

"I put this quad together to learn. And that's just what I'm doing. No shame in knowledge!" Great quote. You should take pride in sharing. You helped get me airborn.

 

[Motopreserve]

I think mike was right. It certainly flows both ways. The knowledge, insight and confidence I've gained here from you all has been priceless. There is a strength in community , and that can only make us bolder.

I have to admit it was a bit frustrating to get so much less time in the air today compared to my previous flights. But I'll figure it out. Hoping I don't have to go through the "slow boat from china" routine for new parts - but if I do, so be it.

Never been one one for learning any other way other than diving in. At this point, if I can pull up just shy of learning by [Lipo] fire I'll be happy!

 

[jbrumberg]

I got some automotive vacuum "T" fittings yesterday to replace the little plastic connector pieces that experienced catastrophic failure (most of them) yesterday in the crash, and will be hot gluing things back together again today. Most of the parts survived. Weather looks good tomorrow (I am a card carrying member weathergeek with the NWS: #96-114) for "round 2" of the "Hover Tests and Fine Tuning Trials". If things go better and/or at least longer tomorrow, I will have more data to digest and post. I really think I set myself up for failure with my initial yaw I-gain setting set at 0, but we'll see.

Mike- You may not be the only SciFi challenged individual out there. I have many, many of those old B&W B grade SciFi movies recorded. The attachment is just an example of my "challenges". I even have an "Official" startrek cup (actually 2), no costumes though. I do not wear costumes, makeup, nor anything smelly. :disgust:

I bare my soul- I wreck my quad, I admit to weather geekness, and I am a card carrying startrek loyalist.

 

[mbowser]

Jay, it's funny you mentioned your failure having to do with yaw because I was practicing last night in my bedroom arena (my wife thinks I've gone off the deep end) and I am getting much better at control and hovering in general, except for the yaw. I initially thought it was my inexperience, but I found that when I would attempt to rotate the quad and hit the rudder (mode 2 on throttle control), the quad would lose altitude fast. I am only hovering a few feet off my bed so I don't know how far it would drop if it were higher up, but I suspect the answer lies in the yaw gain settings. Unfortunately, I didn't think to check them last night and I won't be able to check until later tonight. I found a few posts that suggested that it may be user error; meaning that when moving the rudder control, I am inadvertently mixing in throttle changes. I don't know.

-matt

 

[jbrumberg]

Matt- Do you have a KK2.0 or KK2.1 and if so what version?

 

[Motopreserve]

Don't want to put cart before the horse, because you both may need some primary adjustments first , but...


I know there is such a thing as throttle curves and mixes that can help balance a yaw/pitch/roll move. I haven't yet messed with it - but I think there may be a way to automatically add a bit of throttle to various other stick moves to aid in smoother transitions. The thrust that is needed when making various moves changes, so these adjustments may help. But again, this may be for more advanced adjustment , and meant to be done after the basic settings are honed.

 

[mbowser]

Don't want to put cart before the horse, because you both may need some primary adjustments first , but...


I know there is such a thing as throttle curves and mixes that can help balance a yaw/pitch/roll move. I haven't yet messed with it - but I think there may be a way to automatically add a bit of throttle to various other stick moves to aid in smoother transitions. The thrust that is needed when making various moves changes, so these adjustments may help. But again, this may be for more advanced adjustment , and meant to be done after the basic settings are honed.

I think your right on both accounts for me at least: I probably don't have primary adjustments correct yet, and I have read some (not enough) regarding the mixing editor but have yet to touch those settings at all.
Jay, my board is KK2.1 v1.6 firmware.

-matt

PS - I should say that I'm pretty happy with how the quad is hovering now. There is a little drift but it is very correctable even with my fat fingers.

 

[jbrumberg]

Scott you are right. One reason I asked Matt about the KK boards is that what he described is a characteristic (overshooting/undershooting and hopping/dropping) of yaw settings needing some adjustment. Right now I need to learn how to keep my build in the air and get comfortable with its flight characteristics. Down the road I will probably be doing the DR & EXP stuff as I become more comfortable flying with the tuning through the FCB. That may take awhile, based on what happened during my first flight. That's the Tx fine tuning part. I have fine DR & EXP fine tuned tuned my heli's and X1's which added to my flying enjoyment. It really made/makes a difference. Right now I just need to go from the basic stock settings (which I did), to the initial recommended pre-tuning set up settings (which I did) and with which I crashed (but I got an idea what was happening). The roll/pitch settings with a recommended start setting of 50 was relatively manageable (the final recommended setting is 60). Where the setting numbers were off were in the yaw settings and where I ultimately lost it. Recommended start P gain setting is 50 (final is 60) Recommended I gain start setting is 0 with the final setting recommended at 60. In my post-analysis I should have matched yaw P and I gain at 50/50 instead of 50/0. My right stick was "balanced" in a semi-manageable way. My left stick was not "balanced" in a way I could comprehend once I became a smart arse and decided to do more than what I had planned. Had I thought to put it in self level mode so I could kind of "focus" on the left stick maybe I would have been just lucky enough to have been able to manage it just enough to not crash. But that is mindful "what-if" thinking. Tomorrow looks like I will be in go mode for round two. Once I get the ol' camera battery charged up. I need to post a picture of landing gear version 2. My wife is out of town for family issues. It did not take long for me to take over the kitchen table for the really important things in life.

 

[Motopreserve]

I think Drift can be caused by initialization on uneven ground. And I believe that subtle drift can be corrected by the TX trim alone, no?

 

[mbowser]

I think Drift can be caused by initialization on uneven ground. And I believe that subtle drift can be corrected by the TX trim alone, no?

Right, I suspect that the drift is related to my bedroom hovering, I'm no more than 2 or 3 feet off the ground. If this crazy weather we are having would just make up its mind (I vote for winter), I might be able to get outside one of these days, but for now, I'll take it slow.

Jay, maybe I missed it in one of your posts, but what went wrong with your yaw that caused a crash?

-matt

 

[Motopreserve]

I think you should reserve judgement for when you get a little higher off the ground. There're all sorta of posts about ground effect etc. I have been noticing in videos recently that the folks who seem to fly the best/most confident often lift off extremely quick. I'm beginning to think this may be a technique to just rid the craft of ground effect issue right off the bat.

I have personally noticed that when I try to lower the craft slowly for a soft landing, the control changes when it gets right close to the ground. I can lower beautifully from 10' to 3' and the 3' to the ground...not so much

 

[Motopreserve]

Jay, all of that seems to make sense. Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with the KK boards (other than the race reviews), but it sounds like the basic PID functions are similar/same as the multiwii. I recently got a cheap Bluetooth module and android based tablet so I can adjust PID in the field without the computer hookup. Like you, I'll get to that when I get this damn thing airborne in a healthy way like I did over the holidays.

Going to to try some tests on the motors today (sans props) to see if I can determine problems/hear funky sounds.

 

[jbrumberg]

Scott is right about flight trials at greater altitude. The info I posted is just a heads up. Ground effect or TBE (toilet bowl effect) really impacts on the flight characteristics of smaller quads and heli's I see no reason why it should be any different for the bigger craft other than size and mass inertia stuff going on. There was this great post by a friend of mine at RCG. I will ask him permission to post it here if I can find it. It's pretty technical. There can be all kinds of reasons for drift- uneven ground surface take off, initialization on uneven ground, unbalanced props, motor rpms, wind, motors out of plane alignment (although I see a lot of discussion related to this). Consistent drift can be adjusted out through the Tx. Scott you are right about getting a couple of feet into the air at lift off. I shot right up there. Where I got into trouble the biggest problem was major overshooting. I was having trouble with holding altitude too, but I can not remember if it was dropping or rising because I do remember having to constantly over-correct my left stick. That unbalanced feel I mentioned. Scott I really think that landing these things is more like a "gentle throw" than a soft landing. 3' may be it for a quad this size. Even those acrobatic fliers seem to rough land. After 6 months I still can not gently land my X1's and they are small; not like my coaxial helicopters anyways, but they are a different indoor RC animal, and a different design altogether.

Behold: two pictures of my new version of landing gear in the making. Right now the cross pieces are "solid", but they can slide up and down on the fore-aft rod/skids. I probably should hot glue them as well. Any suggestions would be welcome. Jay

 

[mbowser]

I like the horizontal struts on the landing gear. I have the X650F frame (not the H.A.L) and it seems like my piloting skills could use the extra support when I panic and it drops like a stone. Even on the bed I've had a couple of hard landing where I thought the gear would break, those struts would solve that nicely.

-matt