Coming soon Zenmuse gimbal
- Thread starter RTRyder
- Start date
I am probably going to preorder one ! But guys there is still a long way for this thing to proof itself ! All we have up to now is on board videos were we have no clue if they are post processed or not. And outside view of the gimbal showing that it moves nicely and smooth what that means for the cam is another question. I just remember those first DJI WKM videos coming out were more or less everyone was impressed but eventually we had to find out that things work a little different than expected etc.
The none hobby servo approach is certainly interesting that other gimbals makers should adopt to as fast as possible, i hope ! Gimbal makers that have more multirotor background and think in these terms are still my future bet. But lets see when the gimbal is in customer hands, then we really know whats going on. On the one side I am happy to be hopping again that the gimbal is as good as advertised in the first vids we got to see on the other side I am not so pleased since this means they are going to stick to their strategy that the WKM wobbling in the slightest wind to keep a stiff autoleveling and position hold will not be changed !
Boris
@ Koos thanks, email coming back to you
Probably the fastest servo out there is the MKS HV787 and even that running in direct drive at 7.2 volts is not fast enough with the DJI standard camera outputs. To get the resolution they reduce the travel output pulse width so you don't get a full 120 deg . These things that run 5:1 gear ratios are p..sing into the wind. If used with a FC camera output.
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yeehaanow
Member
I noticed that too. It does appear to drift more in the last few seconds though. Plus he is moving it around like a crazy man.
I want to know what it sounds like too. ie- could it be used for other filming purposes too?
At first they have the yaw just following the aircraft but it does smooth fast yaw movements. Afterwards they use it in yaw lock so the camera is always pointing in the same direction. They were also showing some footage which was taken with the gimball. There were some lens flares in the image but they stayed at the same place. This indicates no software stabilization was used on the clips. The mount was very quite. It will be much quieter than servo driven mounts.
Keep in mind it's still under development, it was supposed to be released this month but that has now pushed out another 8 weeks or so apparently which tells me that while the hardware may be the initial production version they're still working on the firmware. DJI likely will not let this one out of the building until its perfect, they have a lot riding on this especially for the kind of $ they'll be asking.
Ken
Ken
seattle_helo
Member
It's difficult to judge scale from the earlier promo photos but after seeing this video the gimbal is much smaller than I thought. It appears the little NEX completely fills the mount. Too bad we have to wait for something larger.
But there is certainly a compelling case for a fully integrated solution where the electronics and mechanics are tailored to each other.
But there is certainly a compelling case for a fully integrated solution where the electronics and mechanics are tailored to each other.
Yeah, talk about segmenting the market, one size for Nex 5N size cams and a bigger one for the heavy full size DSLRs. Start saving your pennys for the big one, I've been told it will be in the $3000 range!
Ken
I'm trying to get a handle on this. Can somebody confirm whether my assumptions are correct about the Zenmuse, and also if they know anything about using dual servos as a means to eliminate backlash (in other gimbal systems)?
1) The main thing that makes the Zenmuse a "game changer" is that it is the first gimbal to use stepper motors, and that the advantage of stepper motors is that they are better suited to eliminate backlash? The angular resolution of the Zenmuse is the same as the Cinestar (0.05 degrees), and I can't figure what else could be unique except the stepper motors...so is that it?
2) Isn't there supposed to be some way to deal with the backlash of a servo driven system by using dual servos on the same axis that would be under opposing loads when not actively making correction movements as a means to eliminating the backlash? I know I read about this somewhere and now I can't remember where I read it. I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere in the RC community but it may have been in a CNC forum where precision motors are also discussed a lot.
3) One last question: Does anybody know if DJI has some hidden source of white papers or technical notes regarding their products? All I can ever find are marketing slicks and basic operating manuals which don't seem to be very complete.
If anybody could fill me in on any of this I'd be grateful. Thanks!
1) The main thing that makes the Zenmuse a "game changer" is that it is the first gimbal to use stepper motors, and that the advantage of stepper motors is that they are better suited to eliminate backlash? The angular resolution of the Zenmuse is the same as the Cinestar (0.05 degrees), and I can't figure what else could be unique except the stepper motors...so is that it?
2) Isn't there supposed to be some way to deal with the backlash of a servo driven system by using dual servos on the same axis that would be under opposing loads when not actively making correction movements as a means to eliminating the backlash? I know I read about this somewhere and now I can't remember where I read it. I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere in the RC community but it may have been in a CNC forum where precision motors are also discussed a lot.
3) One last question: Does anybody know if DJI has some hidden source of white papers or technical notes regarding their products? All I can ever find are marketing slicks and basic operating manuals which don't seem to be very complete.
If anybody could fill me in on any of this I'd be grateful. Thanks!
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I have been using dual servos on my full size camera mounts for years now. they operate in slew mode so the servo pot is fixed. however there is a 3 m/s difference on each servo so it creates a slight torque bias.
The point that bothers me with that Zenmuse is why have a 360 deg yaw axis that crosses into the view of the U/c. In fact why have 360 at all. when all you need is about 15 deg total swing and the rest is made up by yawing the model. It is possible to create a high sensitivity GPS auto waypoint track lock using this method.
It is possible that DJI have also worked this out and it has both a mag and a gps in the imu, which might explain why it was not working in yaw at the startup.
The point that bothers me with that Zenmuse is why have a 360 deg yaw axis that crosses into the view of the U/c. In fact why have 360 at all. when all you need is about 15 deg total swing and the rest is made up by yawing the model. It is possible to create a high sensitivity GPS auto waypoint track lock using this method.
It is possible that DJI have also worked this out and it has both a mag and a gps in the imu, which might explain why it was not working in yaw at the startup.
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DKTek
Member
If that is correct, then it's a great deal considering stepper motor use. This thing reminds me of the Action Arm from Spacecam.
redridinghood
Member
The gimbal does look impressive, they even upped the price from 1500 to 2000.
What worries me is that they will try to lock this system to the wkm and Ace one.
I doubt they will let all those 200 bucks naza owners fly with this.
What worries me is that they will try to lock this system to the wkm and Ace one.
I doubt they will let all those 200 bucks naza owners fly with this.
plingboot
Member
i do think $3000 is a bit of a bonkers price. even the best pilots are having crashes and thats a lot of cash to be pranging up in a loose moment.
i only hope that its a modular build with available and reasonably priced spares.
dont get me wrong i think it looks great and appears to be extremely steady, but at that kind of money you could have an AV130, picloc x3 and a separate radio to control it - with change in your pocket.
i'd have thought a bigger 'game changer' would a something like this which hits the market well below the price of the competition.
i only hope that its a modular build with available and reasonably priced spares.
dont get me wrong i think it looks great and appears to be extremely steady, but at that kind of money you could have an AV130, picloc x3 and a separate radio to control it - with change in your pocket.
i'd have thought a bigger 'game changer' would a something like this which hits the market well below the price of the competition.
Droider
Drone Enthusiast
Eh up sturner6.. Welcome to MRF. Have a great time on here.. its a great place to share knowledge and so many great MR pioneers do so on here.
If I shared my IP with the world every man and his dog would be writing control strategies in my specialist field as good as I can.. I doubt that anythings exists in the public domain and like there flight algorithms I guess it would be one clever cookie who could access them from the controller!
If I shared my IP with the world every man and his dog would be writing control strategies in my specialist field as good as I can.. I doubt that anythings exists in the public domain and like there flight algorithms I guess it would be one clever cookie who could access them from the controller!
BorisS
Drone Enthusiast
Wish you guys could understand german. Its really amusing to read the MK forums at the moment and see the MK beta tester and MK AV celebs going ape .... about the DJI gimbal in a negative way. Infos like 17 naza dji system counted up to now that have just flown away and were uncontrollable, condemning the gimbal as a piece of .... and saying stuff like the same results are possible with any given servo driven gimbal and some gyros.
Hmmm i was really hoping that most FC and Gimbal producers take the DJI approach as a challenge, no matter if its going to deliver or not and not dig their heads in the sand, ah lets see. Maybe its just the Mk Beta tester and AV celebs that are scared of loosing ground and and the actual developers understand that some movement has to happen !
Boris
Hmmm i was really hoping that most FC and Gimbal producers take the DJI approach as a challenge, no matter if its going to deliver or not and not dig their heads in the sand, ah lets see. Maybe its just the Mk Beta tester and AV celebs that are scared of loosing ground and and the actual developers understand that some movement has to happen !
Boris
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As opposed to the hundred or more MK that have done the same...?
Of course the MK diehards will stick their heads in the sand and refuse to see the DJI accomplishments for what they are, advancements in what is possible, not until Holger and Co embrace the same technology will they admit it might be better than what they have now.
I own a couple of both Mk and DJI flight controller systems and from direct experience with both on some of the same platforms ranging from $100 kit frames up to high end APV frames, there's a lot to be said for each and I could see reasons to have similar setups with both MK and WKM if it weren't so crazy expensive to do at the high end.
It's funny how the price of the DJI gimbal is jumping all over the place depending on who is talking, I've heard it ranging from about $1200 to $2000 for the little one. After getting burned on the "introductory" price of the WKM when it was first released I think I'll sit back and watch for while to see which way things go. If it is indeed in the $1200 range then I'm interested if the first end user reports are favorable, if it's $2000 I'll stick with the AV130. It's just too much to spend for hobby use at the moment and not knowing what the new FAA regulations will be regarding commerical use in the USA, or even when we'll see the proposed regulations. I'm not going to layout that much cash with anticipation of being able to make it pay for itself only to find out later the regs are too restrictive or cost prohibitive to comply with.
Ken
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UAVproducts
Formerly DJIUSA
As far as specs and pricing and availability goes. Until DJI releases information its all speculation. I can promise you as soon as I get a hold of a unit I will post. As soon as I get any information I will post it. Mid to late March is the last I heard. Information will start flowing now that Nuremburg is over.
redridinghood
Member
Just a noob question, why everyone say that stepper motors are expensive?
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Stepper-Motors/Stepper-Motors
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Stepper-Motors/Stepper-Motors
I strongly doubt that they are stepper motors - have DJI themselves confirmed this? Steppers can "micro-step" to yield the required resolution but at the expense of torque - so, to keep weight realistic, you need to uses a gearbox... which introduces backlash and kinda defeats the object of using a stepper in the first place. My guess is that they are regular DC-motored hobby servos (in the mechanical and control sense) in fancy packaging. Maybe the gearbox is a planetary type (from the shape). Hopefully the position feedback is magnetic. If they've incorporated "tuneable" PID control on the servo's response then I'll start to hope that this is actually a "game changer".
As other have said - the proof will have to wait until these are in the hands of end users.
As other have said - the proof will have to wait until these are in the hands of end users.
AD8-HLE WKM AXI for sale :nevreness: