Photohigher skyline rsgs

DennyR

Active Member
LOL - and I thought 5-year-olds could only embarrass us oldies with their computer skills ;)

I think that your damper solution is absolutely valid - to fix the gimbal, not the gimbal controller. As Denny says - if hard-mounting the RSGS is passing vibration into the sensors then it makes sense to prevent that first, then see what can be improved on the gimbal itself. Denny's solution needs some work to establish the right level of isolation to overcome the problem without introducing new ones - one of the keys there is a lead washer to create inertia and mass: that solution may not appeal to all.

In an ideal gimbal, the mechanical arrangement of each axis must be "stiff" (in the engineering sense), i.e. rigid and without any radial or axial play whilst still having very low friction. Any friction present must be overcome by the servo before any actual movement can take place. This means 1) a delay and 2) a jolt in the system as the friction is overcome and the rotation accelerates more than was originally intended. Any play in the system (a.k.a. looseness, slop, backlash, etc.) must also be "taken up" before any actual movement of the axis can take place. Unfortunately the PH gimbals are poorly designed in this respect - as far as I know, neither side of the pitch axis (for example) has any pre-loading on the bearings or special bearing arrangement to limit/remove radial and axial play. The servos have (unavoidable) backlash in their gears and the belt drive has (unavoidable) backlash. The net effect of all of this is that the camera is not rigidly fixed in its orientation - it can "wander about" either side of its nominal position by an amount equal to the sum of all the backlash in all the components. And it's easy to see - with the servo holding any particular position, try moving the camera very gently - it will be able to move (in just about every direction, but rotation will be the most obvious). This unconstrained movement will show up in video, particularly at longer focal lengths. It's one of the big advantages of the Zenmuse, which (by its mechanical design and the absence of any gearing between the motor and the camera) will have (almost) zero backlash: it is a "stiff" structure end-to-end.

The primary reason for the appearance of belt drive on this type of gimbal is because it will tend to mask the backlash in the servo (which is far and away the worst offender). The belt tension creates a radial bias force on the axis - in other words, a frictional force that needs to be overcome before that axis can rotate. This will mask, to some extent, the backlash in the servo but it won't reduce it in any way. Note, too, that its effectiveness at masking the backlash will vary according to how tight it is fitted. Furthermore, of course, it also introduces its own backlash to the system. As with any gearing, the belt drive also has the simultaneous effect of reducing the drive speed and increasing the torque by the same proportion. Increased torque is helpful but reduced speed isn't!

This backlash has another nasty trick up its sleeve - if your axis measurement system (in this case the RSGS) is able to "see" that unconstrained movement, i.e. it senses the axis/camera has rotated when actually it hasn't (it's just "flopped" from one side of the backlash to the other) then it thinks "ooh! I must correct that!" and tries to do so. Through the miracle of mathematics, this can quickly become a meaningless oscillation as the system bounces from one end of the backlash to the other (and beyond, thanks to momentum) and the controller battles to "correct it". High speed oscillation... a.k.a. jitter. The only way to stop the maths misbehaving like this would be to filter out tiny movements, in other words, reduce the resolution of the system. The maths can't tell the difference between backlash and rotation of the frame in the air.

Fitting a rotary damper is supplementing the "masking" of backlash on that axis - as such it will be effective in preventing backlash-induced jitter (and should allow you to have the gain higher so you have a more responsive axis). You want a low resistance, just enough to stop the axis "flopping" and not enough to hold the servo back too much when it does try to rotate the axis. As you say: more controllable and constant than a friction washer (or adjusting the tension of the belt). There are adjustable bi-directional rotary dampers available, of course - that would be ideal to fine tune the effect. But, at the end of the day, the backlash will still be there - a better mechanical design of the gimbal as a whole would remove the need (for the RSGS or any other controller).

Jeremy as you know I went through the whole servo thing a while back, I stopped using gear/belt drives in favour of direct drive servos such as MKS 787 at 8.4 volts due to the speed of response, when that was exhausted I saw that I reached the end of the road. It was just not fast enough. Enter the torque motor and 24 volts. The interest in finding a sensible IMU to go with this has always been a major consideration. Good to see that OP has got into the MPU600. James knows what he is doing alright. Now that it has the license to use the built-in sensor fusion algorithm it has freeded up a lot of space to do some interesting things. The 500 dg/sec setting is very good but at 250 deg/sec with the 16 bit ADC we are looking at .0038 deg accuracy. I'll take that any day.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
Jeremy as you know I went through the whole servo thing a while back, I stopped using gear/belt drives in favour of direct drive servos such as MKS 787 at 8.4 volts due to the speed of response, when that was exhausted I saw that I reached the end of the road. It was just not fast enough. Enter the torque motor and 24 volts. The interest in finding a sensible IMU to go with this has always been a major consideration. Good to see that OP has got into the MPU600. James knows what he is doing alright. Now that it has the license to use the built-in sensor fusion algorithm it has freeded up a lot of space to do some interesting things. The 500 dg/sec setting is very good but at 250 deg/sec with the 16 bit ADC we are looking at .0038 deg accuracy. I'll take that any day.
If you get your hands on a spare (the new one) I'll buy it from you. The old CC was actually a good little board.
 
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ChrisViperM

Active Member
Now I try it again, since there was no respond to my post (#852) ...the title of that vid clearly indicates that they are testing a A200 gimbal with direct drive motors instead of servos, but I could not get any more information on this. In my opinion this could solve all the servo issues. Maybe Cederic knows more about it....?

Chris
 


ChrisViperM

Active Member
Thanks for the response...but the price can't be worse than the Zenmuse....close to € 3.000,- in some places in Europe.

If they are quick, they can make a fortune....Zenmuse won't be avalible for the next couple of weeks :nevreness:

Chris
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Has anyone tried the 1.1.7 yet? I never got around to giving it a whirl. I can send it to anyone wanting to try it out. It is beta, but so is everything at this point.
 


koptercam

RED Epic or ARRI Mini? Both!
Hi Koptercam
I only used the lead to add some mass to the imu. All of the solutions that we have heard about are showing some degree of improvement especially with regard to the jitter problem and the backlash. At the end of the day we still need some work on the code before we can say we are there or almost there. I am about to try 1.1.7 thanks to Cedric. fingers crossed that this is a further step.

Well, thanks to IrisAerial, I have given 1.1.7 a good workout. I tried setting the levels with new auto tune method and received much better results then I did with 1.1.6, but still had to fine tune it manually and then after about 3 tries with auto tune, it never leveled correctly again.

I first tested 1.1.7 with no modifications, and unfortunately I was still getting the tilt jitter (can also be clearly seen from the latest video PH uploaded). Its interesting that in the new 1.1.7 Setup guide, they now tell you to add the piece of felt in the tilt servo AND to do the H-loom mod and are even 'sending out the small wiring harness as part of the package'. I really thought this was going to be a temporary solution.

Before I added the H-loom mod, I just added the felt piece (1.5mm thickness) to the tilt servo, and surprisingly the tilt jitter was all but gone.

DennyR, I do also want to try your method of the torsion dampener but seeing as I have no means to fabricate a drive flange, I need to hunt some mechanical stores to find something suitable.

Im still getting 1-3mm creep on the roll axis (video below), but this is not really the main problem. As it was mentioned on a previous page, the tilt compensation is just too slow. I have my gain set to 250, as this is the max I can have before jitter comes into play, and you can clearly see camera movement.
The roll compensation is definitely flight acceptable, but could be improved.
So yea, I completely agree that more work on the code needs to happen.

Im going for a test flight again tomorrow to check the results of the tilt jitter, so cross fingers.

I also just ordered a HoverflyGIMBAL (yes i found one in stock!), so if i have no luck with the RSGS over the next few days, ill swap it over, give it a test, and post some results. I havent completely lost faith in the RSGS as I can see its potential, but maybe it will sit on the shelf for a while until things get sorted.

 
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jes1111

Active Member
Now I try it again, since there was no respond to my post (#852) ...the title of that vid clearly indicates that they are testing a A200 gimbal with direct drive motors instead of servos, but I could not get any more information on this. In my opinion this could solve all the servo issues. Maybe Cederic knows more about it....?

Chris
I missed that little detail - right there in the headline but I didn't see it! :)

If, as Cedric suggests, the price is "important" (I like that - not a "high" price, an "important" price :)) it would seem (to me) to be a doubtful investment. Retrofitting a direct drive motor to the pitch axis would get rid of the servo backlash, but will they still ship a felt washer for the other side of that axis? Or supply a properly pre-loaded double-bearing assembly? And how do they propose to "direct drive" the roll axis? ;)

I wonder if the RSGS will drive the direct drive motor with the same analog voltage output they are using for hobby servos? Or does the RSGS have some other tricks hidden behind that multi-pin connector?
 


R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Just to diverse for a moment, The more that I look at this thing the less I like it. What intelligent person would design a landing gear so that it focusses all of the landing loads at the weakest point and then drills a nice hole at that point. Oh I get it. It's supposed to break. Yeah that would be very good for those expensive replacement parts.
View attachment 7369

Sorry to continue this divergence but... wow.

From what I can see in the picture, it actually looks like a hole at the end of a slot. I presume it is attempting to blunt the crack tip singularity (ie: reduce the stress concentration). I'm not sure if that's really necessary or helpful on a woven fiber structure, however. Regardless, it's another terrible design. For a short time I had some fancy CF landing gear on my helicopter, constructed of cut CF plate like that. It literally exploded on the first rough landing, parts flew up into the main rotor disk, and destroyed that too... I'll stick with the basic moulded plastic stuff now thanks.

It's excellent threads like this one that have prevented me from bothering to spend tons of money on any of these systems that just don't work. Thanks guys.
 

DJIFlyer

Member
For what its worth; I just ran the 1.1.7 Software, FW and read the "NEW" manual. Same old crap. No effort whatsoever has been made to put a better face on their mess. Nothing has changed accept for their mention and photos of how to make a felt washer to place behind the tilt servo. I really feel like an idiot for trusting them to get it right after all that has been said yet the unit did all of the same nasty things that it has always done and now I have stripped yet another drive gear that I just waited 6 weeks to receive after their sending me the wrong one twice in a row. The whole damn thing has TWO freaking gears on it and they can't even send out the right one!!! I assumed that they had figured out a way for this thing to setup without having to disconnect the servos (because their new manual does not mention that we have to disconnect them) but I was mistaken.

I just went to the Hoverfly site and ordered a new gimbal controller from them. Shame on these Photohigher jerk-offs for being too lazy to take the time to explain their product and for selling us this piece of crap to begin with. The fact that they don't even have the balls to come out and explain themselves on any level just makes them a bunch of ****less idiots as far as I'm concerned. They would have lasted an hour in the neighborhood I grew up in so I hope they end up in the joint or on a corner with a tin cup where they belong. I'm through ****ing around with this f***ing thing. Hey Kimberley.. STABILIZE THIS!!!
 
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DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
well, I am not happy to hear the new firmware didnt fix things but I am also not surprised at this point. I really don't think the PH guys are Jerk-offs. i can see why you are upset, I am not happy about this either, but they got themselves in a pickle and have fewer and fewer tries to redeem their image. I can only sympathize on some level.

I'm curious what happens if you take a homemade steadicam and mount it under your heli. No tilt control, no roll, no pan. Just a U-joint with a very well balanced camera on it. Is this what the ecilop is all about? i still tend to lean toward mechanical since I dont know a thing about programming.
 

Hi guys,

Here's an update on where I'm at.

I'm confident the roll issue when tilting is solved.

These are what I'm focusing on getting done.

Interference between servos.
The servos run the motors at a 333Hz PWM frequency. So the motors are turning on and off at this frequency, when the motors turn on there is a voltage drop across the power source because the voltage regulator on the skyline isn't perfect there is some drop on the analog power supply which in turn creates a small drop on the digital to analog output that controls the servos which results in jitter. The reason why this doesn't happen when only one servo is plugged in is because the servo samples the potentiometer input when it isn't driving it's own motor. With more than one servo one servo will sometimes sample when another servo is on and sometimes when it's off. Ideally the servos would synchronise their internal PWM with the servo signal they are sent. The next best solution is to power the servos separately but this isn't that convenient.

Solve the jitter issue on the tilt.
I think there are a number of factors contributing to this.
One cause for this is off centered center of gravity means when the servo is driving the tray in the direction it wants to fall the tray will overtake the target position and the servo will try and pull the tray back up resulting in jittering. Damping should help here by stopping the tray from getting too ahead of itself.

Backlash in the servo makes things jitter and slop in the tilt belt don't help things either. Damping can't get rid of the backlash and wont stop the servos from jittering between the backlash but will help stop the tray from moving independently and bouncing around by itself.

Even updating the servos through the analog potentiometer input has some delays which puts a limit on how responsive the system can be. I might have to make the Skyline less responsive to improve the stability. See the step response graph I've included.

Pan
Enough said.

Tidy up the software.
Software needs a lot of work to make it more professional. I am planning on bundling the firmware with the software since the software is so small at least until everything is working as it should. After that I'll look at having the software download updates automatically.

Datalogging and display
There is some very limited logging and display at the moment. I would like to make this more sophisticated.

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nicwilke

Active Member
Interference between servos.
The servos run the motors at a 333Hz PWM frequency. So the motors are turning on and off at this frequency, when the motors turn on there is a voltage drop across the power source because the voltage regulator on the skyline isn't perfect there is some drop on the analog power supply which in turn creates a small drop on the digital to analog output that controls the servos which results in jitter. The reason why this doesn't happen when only one servo is plugged in is because the servo samples the potentiometer input when it isn't driving it's own motor. With more than one servo one servo will sometimes sample when another servo is on and sometimes when it's off. Ideally the servos would synchronise their internal PWM with the servo signal they are sent. The next best solution is to power the servos separately but this isn't that convenient.

So a sort of 'brownout' to the RSGS? How about adding a voltage regulator to the loom? Like this one
Thanks for the update guys.
 

How about adding a voltage regulator to the loom? Like this one
Thanks for the update guys.

Thanks for the update as well Guys. Regular updates keep us friendly and cooperative. If you stay away too long, rants like the one a few posts above tend to get generated through frustration.:)

Good idea. (3300uF cap) I tried just that but only used a 4.7uF. Going to find me a big electrolytic and add it to the loom.
Having said that I am getting acceptable results with the following:
1: Cedric's gel
2: H loom
3: felt washers. (If you tighten them so the tray does not return to its original position, then they are too tight)
4: added springs to help the tray overcome initial felt inertia. (I dont know whether this helps, but it makes me feel good!)

I have also tried decoupling power and control inputs and outputs. No noticeable difference.

The results I get are fine for my (hobbyist) needs. I do not want an aerial tripod that makes it look as if I am filming from a high building or something. I want my videos to look as if they are from a flying machine. At the end of the day it is the video that counts. It doesnt matter how good a system you have, how expensive your equipment is or how extensive your techie knowhow is, it is all down to the film you get in the can. YMMV.
 
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rsc

Member
I just went to the Hoverfly site and ordered a new gimbal controller from them. Shame on these Photohigher jerk-offs for being too lazy to take the time to explain their product and for selling us this piece of crap to begin with. The fact that they don't even have the balls to come out and explain themselves on any level just makes them a bunch of ****less idiots as far as I'm concerned. They would have lasted an hour in the neighborhood I grew up in so I hope they end up in the joint or on a corner with a tin cup where they belong. I'm through ****ing around with this f***ing thing. Hey Kimberley.. STABILIZE THIS!!![/QUOTE said:
Brilliant.. i am at this level too!
 

jes1111

Active Member
Cards on the table - good move :)

One things that passed by way, way up this thread was the potentiometer voltage range. I appreciate that you've clearly stated the device was designed around Savox servos, but I think it would help if you laid out the necessary numbers. Plenty of users would have the capability to measure the servos they have in order to establish compatibility.

Cheers and good luck.
 

DennyR

Active Member
Hi guys,

Here's an update on where I'm at.

I'm confident the roll issue when tilting is solved.

These are what I'm focusing on getting done.

Interference between servos.
The servos run the motors at a 333Hz PWM frequency. So the motors are turning on and off at this frequency, when the motors turn on there is a voltage drop across the power source because the voltage regulator on the skyline isn't perfect there is some drop on the analog power supply which in turn creates a small drop on the digital to analog output that controls the servos which results in jitter. The reason why this doesn't happen when only one servo is plugged in is because the servo samples the potentiometer input when it isn't driving it's own motor. With more than one servo one servo will sometimes sample when another servo is on and sometimes when it's off. Ideally the servos would synchronise their internal PWM with the servo signal they are sent. The next best solution is to power the servos separately but this isn't that convenient.

Solve the jitter issue on the tilt.
I think there are a number of factors contributing to this.
One cause for this is off centered center of gravity means when the servo is driving the tray in the direction it wants to fall the tray will overtake the target position and the servo will try and pull the tray back up resulting in jittering. Damping should help here by stopping the tray from getting too ahead of itself.

Backlash in the servo makes things jitter and slop in the tilt belt don't help things either. Damping can't get rid of the backlash and wont stop the servos from jittering between the backlash but will help stop the tray from moving independently and bouncing around by itself.

Even updating the servos through the analog potentiometer input has some delays which puts a limit on how responsive the system can be. I might have to make the Skyline less responsive to improve the stability. See the step response graph I've included.

Pan
Enough said.

Tidy up the software.
Software needs a lot of work to make it more professional. I am planning on bundling the firmware with the software since the software is so small at least until everything is working as it should. After that I'll look at having the software download updates automatically.

Datalogging and display
There is some very limited logging and display at the moment. I would like to make this more sophisticated.

View attachment 7421
View attachment 7422

Hi Im still sticking with this in an effort to see the final solution. I am fully aware of its limitations so I know what is not possible with what we have. For sure you have a major problem with the code. That said 1.1.7 is better than what I have seen before. The balance factor does make a significant difference to the tilt response which is the biggest issue. Roll is almost OK. You should take a look at the SL720 software which has far more control over deceleration. Fitting a brake to the servo output is a really stupid solution C'mon how is a correctly functioning pid algorithm going to deal with that. At best you will have reduced resolution at small movements. The initial movement is were it all counts. Cross axis errors are common with simplified systems that don't have the right sensor fusion. There is really no point in trying to create a self tune program. If you suddenly fell on some form of eureka settings how do you know what you have. We want to see the full range of options. I have tested this with a few (programable) deadband servo ranges and it has no effect at all.
 
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DennyR

Active Member
The 550D is quite a heavy camera for this mount and with a 18-55 lens it needs to be mounted on the furthest hole from the tray, it also then needed some shims to get the final height just right.
This is not a solution BTW it is just another step in the right direction. I just powered the two servos from a separate PS and could not see any significant difference. So one PS for the Skyline one for the tilt servo and one for the Roll servo. What other games can we play.... Capacitor on the power line.

I can remember when I was playing with the CC board and it had a similar problem when it was mounted on the final axis, it did not have jitter but it worked better on the first axis because you could crank up the gains without seeing the oscillations. Maybe James Cotton has some ideas on that.

Someone who knows far more about PID tuning than I ever will is James Cotton. Check this out
As you can see there is a lot more to PID tuning than just Gain settings
 
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