Promoting Commercial sUAS.

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
If i had to guess this has something to do with the faa's stance on there relationship with AMA in an attempt to quit helping them get away with exempting them from getting the laws the way there viewed.... I'm not in the politics of it all enough to care... to busy trying to work.

AMA member since 1993,,,,, in my eyes they were never in the business of getting any of us to work, there all about hobbyist which we all know is the stepping stone to commercialization. I always wondered how all the pro rc pilots got away with just being said to be ok to fly yet getting a paycheck. just no camera and no flight controller with return to home capability made that a model instead of uav.... talk about the grey area, I've been watching all these 3d guys get paid for the last 20 years and have witnessed some of the most dangerous flight i've ever witnessed. the few rc related deaths i've heard and seen have always involved them guys
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Old Man, your comments are sort of where I am going with this. My concern is that, in Canada, and it appears in the US, these "waivers" seem to be granted more on a basis of "in the right place at the right time", rather than any kind of rational determination of the safety of operations. They give a huge leg-up to the companies that can get them, and effectively block out any new upstarts, who may or may not actually operate more safely than the "original 6".

And lets be frank, the only reason the Original 6 were in a position to put in the effort required to get the waiver, is because they were already operating "illegally". But now they've been forgiven, and brought into the fold, and the suggestion is that anybody that operates "illegally" in the future will not be forgiven so easily. How is that logical?

I'm not against a certification and approval process. I just wish it was a PROCESS. Not some kind of wishy-washy paperwork that doesn't really accomplish much.

The UK and Australia have it figured out. A prospective professional has a process to follow, where they can be virtually guaranteed in achieving a deterministic permit level. Take your training. Buy a machine that has some quasi-approval situation. Take your test. Get a permit for some defined operation. You can make a business plan around that.

You can't make a business plan, and get a loan, to start a business based on the regulations in the US and Canada. That's the problem.
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
AMA member since 1993,,,,, in my eyes they were never in the business of getting any of us to work, there all about hobbyist which we all know is the stepping stone to commercialization. I always wondered how all the pro rc pilots got away with just being said to be ok to fly yet getting a paycheck. just no camera and no flight controller with return to home capability made that a model instead of uav.... talk about the grey area, I've been watching all these 3d guys get paid for the last 20 years and have witnessed some of the most dangerous flight i've ever witnessed. the few rc related deaths i've heard and seen have always involved them guys
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Bingo!!!

I'm active on RC Heli forums, and I keep bringing this up. There's a huge amount of animosity there between heli guys and multirotors. It's the technology version of racism. The 3D Heli guys get their panties all in a wad everytime a new video comes out showing somebody doing something stupid with a quad. I keep point out "Ok, but RC Helis is the only group to have killed 5 people in 2 years." It shuts them right up... until the next video comes out.

The 3D Heli guys are hugely dangerous. You should see the latest thing. They found out that, SHOCKER! when doing crazy aerobatics, and intentionally overspeeding the rotor by up to 50% over the maximum speed recommended by the OEM, that sometimes the blades blow up in the air! And wow, that could be dangerous! Their solution, is to drop that blade manufacturer, and change to others which have no recommended max speed at all (because they don't engineer them at all), and also run the rotors over the max speed recommended by the helicopter manufacturer....

And then you have inverted Hurricanes at 100 mph passing within 10 feet of themselves...

They are farking STUPID.

Sorry, you touched a nerve... :D
 

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
The difference between us and a lot of others was the right time, right place. but, we all were also known to be experienced from doing work out of the country or under temporary drone filming permits in US airspace authorized by other forms of government & otherwise lower risk evidence with ZERO letters to cease and desist...... before this exemption went through all our dealings with mpaa was out of country shoots.... I test in the desert, i'm sure they wish everybody would...

The thing nobody seems to care about is these 6 companies are probably looking to hire 500-1000 operators in the next 6 months with a ton of room to grow. This isn't the traditional one pilot, one camera guy, one runner.... this is a pepsi, qualcom, chevy type of situation.... Theres also a pile of more cinema 333 on the desks of the faa now. Were weren't the only ones, we were just the first....there is a process, i posted links to there sites that even tells you how. If folks don't see the writing on the wall all i can say is i wish you luck in your journey and make sure to let us know how it goes for ya.

For the record, nobody at Aerial Mob was ever paid or got a dime from the company till this went through. I had to shave my goat over it
 

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
I've stood on ama 3d heli flight lines both as there observer and flying scale around them, lemme tell ya, it turned me off big time... that happened twice and it was two times too many. Every move is last minute something after flying the thing 90 degrees full speed at themselves.... If that's what it's about, i'm out...

QV7I0494__800x534_.jpg


that was me up until this stupid f450 came in my life and well....
 

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
There was one other company with us that has been trying to get exemption and the mpaa had filed on there behalf for something like 3 years in a row prior to this,,,, some reason they still haven't gotten exemption but are expected too. They have filmed aerials for James Bond movies going back 20 years... between the 7 companies there are 4 or 5 acadamy awards for aerial cinema. the one not exempted yet won an oscar this year for technology excellence. It's not a mistake for who they chose to apply on behalf for.
 



Av8Chuck

Av8Chuck

Member
Part of the issue is that the FAA is creating an environment where there are the "Have's" and "Have nots." Kloner you've been an active member here since the inception of this site, you've helped all of us at one time or another so your getting this COA is a bitter sweet thing for some of us. I'm not damning you with faint praise, I really hope you guys can run with this and be hugely successful, [and I'm not your therapist] but you need to acknowledge that your work IS political, a big reason for you guys getting the COA is the MPAA, the fact that a former Congressman is the head of the MPAA shouldn't be overlooked, and that the FAA has handed you the "Golden Ticket."

What about those that don't have representation from the MPAA or any other large trade association? Why should those six companies be the only ones looking to hire 500-1000 people in the next six months.

Did you know that by the end of next year we will have more humans on this planet than we can feed, yet 80% of the planet that can be farmed is being farmed so the additional food won't come from farming more acreage it needs to come from higher food yields and drones could have a profound impact on increasing that yield. So you guys want to hire more people to make movies so our population can amuse itself to death but the FAA stands directly in the way of developing the technology required to help feed the planet which will require hiring tens of thousand of people.

The solutions to these sorts of problems are not going to come from the government, trade unions or even big business. They're going to come from some innovative people in a garage or small industrial park who have spent the better part of a decade caring about and living with the problems of hunger, a retired SWAT member or fireman concerned with safer and more effective search and rescue, an environmentalists studying wildlife poaching or pollution, and so on. That's not just my opinion, that's the way it has always been and whether they intend for it to be this way the policies of the FAA are keeping these people in their garages, they're stopping them from partnering with larger less innovative companies that have the resources and money that can be used to integrate drones into the solutions of these problems.

What do you think an employee at the FAA knows about treating and safely distributing a vaccine for ebola to an effected rural part of the world. Do you think drones might play a role in that? But that solution can't be developed and tested here in the US, WHY NOT?

So again, since most of us don't have access to the MPAA, or a Congressman, or the millions of dollars that will invariably be spent fighting these regulations in the Supreme Court, I'd suggest we create an organization, one that although it can't be a big stick to beat people over the head, maybe we can be a big enough thorn that we can poke them where it hurts. And if they clover us with a bigger stick at least they would have heard us.

Isn't this just common sense?
 

D

dark_star

Member
It is interesting that Flying Cam, who has done this earlier than anyone to my knowledge, was initially denied. It certainly does show the hesitation of allowing a single rotor system into the fold. Unquestionably they are less safe on set but those guys also have a good record spanning over twenty years. Meanwhile, other operations like the dudes from Reno and others who still use single rotor systems would never quality for 333. As much as I think some of the 333 stuff is inane (reporting all flights and flight times three days in advance to the local FSDO, claiming that our 'fuel' is non-flammable, TBO and manufacturer listed replacement times for motors/props [doesn't even exist]) it's a decent first step.
 

kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
I agree chuck you do need a group, but like was happening before this and after this, it just doesn't go anywhere. We have an association but i still don't understand what it is and what it's about but we have one not announced yet. if anything transpires i'll share it with you all.

I too want everybody involved but at these early stages, is gonna be more hiring employees and teaching feds what these are about and what they need to be aware of more so than helping everybody get there own.... what nobody wants is for the value to be watered down through competition but being union will help that as well. When this turns into less worth than an underground shoot from yesterday i'm out.
 

D

dark_star

Member
Chuck, any reasonable person can see the merit of what you're saying. But you seem to forget the absolute truth that life isn't fair. It never will be. The original seven entities took the bull by the horns, spent the time and money needed for research and attorneys and made things happen. Of course it gives them an operational advantage. For now. For very specific and limited situations. But, like cloner said, now anyone else can submit to the same process. The early birds got the worm but others are not locked out- they just need to go down that same path.

And, believe me, as interesting as all the 333 stuff is, the under the table jobs aren't going anywhere. Read through the ops manuals and 333 rules and they are so limiting we couldn't have done 75% of the jobs we've ever done operating under them. Nothing for me is more important than safety, but a lot of the 333 stuff is dumb. Not all of it.
 

R

Ronan

Member
After reading the past few comments, i guess i'm not the only one bothered (and scarred/worried) about large scale 3D heli's... man those thing will take your head off!
 

Old Man

Old Man

Active Member
You're not alone at all. I'm a 3d GS fixed wing flyer but there are things in even that I won't do. The 3d heli guys take everything far. far beyond any level of safety. I will not attend one of their meets and normally get behind something when one comes to a field I'm using.

A couple great points earlier. Kloner with being in the right place and time and dark_star with life not being fair. A dangerous path has been started here over a perception of unfair advantage, fairness, and market share. To those that made the first six waivers I say Hooray! They are about to start doing what the FAA stated would not happen. Is that fair for those that are not yet on that path? Probably not but life isn't fair and the rewards typically go to those that plan, prepare, position, play the game by whatever set of rules are in place at the time, and act when the moment is right.

Will those first 6 have a grand head start in the game? Absolutely, but they will also get to shoulder a tremendous amount of responsibility until the playing field becomes more populated and relieves some of the scrutiny. Those 6 are for the most part all involved in the same game so perhaps they will be responsible and forward thinking enough to develop the operational rules and equipment best suited to their craft in a manner that will be functional for others to follow. Monopolizing is easy to catch so as long as none of the 6 force a mandate to use only their proprietary products the playing field will level out. The FAA really doesn't know squat about what we do or how its done so these 6 will be the ones to carry water for all that follow. Cinematography is just the tip of the iceberg for what MR's and mini helis are capable of so there's still a lot of ground to break for those that have designs that go beyond aerial cinema. methods used for cinema work will not be able to serve all the factions that MR's can entertain. There's plenty of envy and jealousy left to go around for quite some time to come.

The AMA has proven itself to be ineffective in dealing with the FAA. That was pretty much established during their entry into the original ARC committee when they were denied the ability to have a voice. They were only permitted to be present and listen, with no chance of constructive input with the direction the discussions would take. For all intents and purposes they were neutered before they started playing the game but were too full of themselves and politically weak to recognize that. Being an AMA member since the late 60's I've watched as they became less and less about the modeler and more and more about the AMA and a few special interest groups within the AMA, usually associated with people that were part of the good old boy club of previous competition winners and long time hobby vendors. Short version is they will not be the ones in and of themselves to make any impact on the FAA. Professional results will require professional efforts. To obtain the support necessary to sway politicians with numbers the professionals will need to also represent the hobbyists, previously noted as stepping stones to the professionals, and general enthusiasts that just want to fly and have fun.

To those first 6, kudos guys because you've proven it can be done. What's left is establishing how it's done and the changes the FAA will have to adopt in order to best serve their mission statement, which is to assure aviation safety and promote commercial aviation endeavors. The promotion of aviation commercial is a carry over from the days of the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) that many have forgotten. It will take us all working together, not feeling disadvantaged, smug or superior, or quibbling over semantics, to get where we need to go. There's a lot of hard work ahead, and enough for everybody to carry some of it. Someone will always have market advantage. That's the way business works and always will, with market positions changing every day.
 


FlyGirl

FlyGirl

Member


R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
FlyGirl said:
Son of a *****..... Well I won't say it's illegal at this point because there are no regulations or even standards as of right now. Are there?
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I wouldn't be too concerned, as I'd say your last statement is probably true. I don't really see how this makes it any more legal or illegal than it was yesterday. AC91-57 was just a document that gave voluntary suggestions on how to operate safely. It's not a regulation or standard, so it's removal doesn't mean a whole lot.

Some people think that AC 91-57 is what permitted model aircraft flight in the first place, but that is not the case I don't think. It was just a suggestion as to how to operate safely.

I'd be more concerned that it's another sign that the FAA is seemingly getting grumpy about the situation. We've just been told to get off the front lawn, dang kids.
 
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kloner

kloner

Aerial DP
Wow, that's what happens when you sue em i guess..... I haven't gotten anything from my ama club, that must be coming next....
 

Av8Chuck

Av8Chuck

Member
kloner said:
Wow, that's what happens when you sue em i guess..... I haven't gotten anything from my ama club, that must be coming next....
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No, that's what happens when the FAA tries to enforce non-existent regulations.

This is probably a formality related to the Pirker case. There's nothing new here that I can tell.
 

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