Pricing - Please stop cutting our own throats.

[SMP]

Dear Fellow Drone Pilots,

Have you ever noticed that when you are headed off to your next commercial drone job and you stop to fill up your car, truck, van etc that NO MATTER whether you are on the West Coast, the East Coast or the middle that the price of Gasoline pretty much never goes below at least 3.50 a gallon these days???

Now there are places in Miami where it's nearly 5 bucks a gallon (Airport rental car return) and places where it's not but USUALLY its around 4 bucks a gallon. Shell, Exxon, Rotten Robbie, Billy Bobs Gas Shack, you name it, while they all may shave a quarter here or there they NEVER SLASH THEIR OWN THROATS BY OFFERING IT A 1.00 PER GALLON.

Here's my point.

UNLESS WE CONSOLIDATE and start pricing like Gasoline Companies we are going to become like digital wedding photographers, 300 bucks, all images included!

You know from my previous posts I don't mind competition, however when you take an ATL (above the line) client like University of Miami and they want three days of HD shooting with BROADCAST QUALITY AND BROADCAST RIGHTS and you friggen lowball it. You have just killed that Client FOREVER!!!

Guess what, Lexus of Coral Gables gets a lowball, Billy Bobs Bagel Shack gets a lowball, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI w BROADCAST does not!!!

OK, clearly I just got tossed on an RFP so emotions aside the point is simply this, until we consolidate and NEVER GO UP for "lets say how about 4500 bucks minimum for a half day gopro ride", then we will never ever control the market, we will ALWAYS leave money on the table and people are gonna fill up for free on our backs all day long!

Gentlemen, drones are the future, they ARE BEGGING for our services, please don't poison the well, we're just getting started!!!!

 

[janoots2]

Well said! On the other side... I have a large shoot waiting in the wings because he thinks our services are too new and rates are inflated, so he wants to wait til they come down! He can keep waiting...

 

[DucktileMedia]

You have a good point but the problem I encounter is a kid with a gopro quad(phantom/f450) offers to do it for free-$300. There are different clients with different needs. I have seen some mighty impressive footage come from a well gimballed gopro. There are a lot of shoots where the producers just want a few seconds of pizzazz for an internet based ad. These guys always seem to be the ones with the most work and the guys that are most likely to grab only the cheapest option around. It gets annoying. And this is why I am no longer putting money into heavy lift machines. From here out its all Y6 and cx/gh's. What you are requesting is only possible if you can reach out to the millions of kids with cheap *** quads and gopros desperate for recognition. Times change. I think we would benefit more from finding clients that have the budget to pay for a knowledgeable, insured and competent crew rather than go for cheap, risky and shaky. No doubt though, once you start with a low bid, it's next to impossible to increase your number. There will always be clients that are inherently broke/cheap and there will be those that have a decent budget and full respect for what we do. Perhaps you need a better sales pitch? Maybe a video showing how crappy gopro footage is in comparison to what you offer. Clients can be quite malleable under the right fire.

 

[JoeBob]

Agree. I've been a photographer since 1976, and I know how to price those services.

But I'm ignorant of the value of aerial video. What is a good standard pricing structure? All the established UAV pros have their rates hidden away behind "contact us to discuss prices."

I admit that I'm doing a few jobs for expenses (and some for free just to get the reference) in order to build a portfolio. But those are jobs that I went out and proposed to clients who weren't shopping. "Hey, let me do this for you so that I can learn." I'm not bidding against established photogs; I'm building a market where there was none before.

But after I establish a client base, and a low level of expertise, what should I charge for my work?
What is a fair price for an 8 hour job? 1 hour planning, 3 hours flying/filming, 3 hours editing and post-production, 1 hour travel and misc.
For 'A' quality, 'B' quality and 'C' quality work?

If you don't want the new guys to undercut you, we need to know what 'under' is.


Thanks

 

[PeteDee]

LOL, we are paying $1.70 per litre, that would be more than $6.00 per gallon, taxes are about 80% of that.

Gaaaaaaargh!!

 

[DucktileMedia]

There is a big difference in doing a free test run for someone and charing $100. But people will walk all over you if you give them things for free. A good client will have a budget set aside for aerials and others it will have to come out of an allowance or a "special" funds. The problem with this, even though it's been around for years, is that most DP's/producers dont know what they want or how it entirely works. So when it comes time to bid you need to figure out right off the bat if they have a budget at all. If they say no, you have the opportunity to tell them you would like to work with them but I have a minimum to cover my expenses. Start high and work down, not the other way around but know your bottom line. Do you have a cam/op, travel time, setup time, post, insurance, etc.

I think we all need to stick together when it comes to keeping this a safe viable sport/hobby but unfortunately I just don't see any realistic way to get everyone on board for a uniform pricing structure. Unless we had to be part of a union of some sort and NONE of us want that. Times change. You do what you think is right for your situation. I dont feel that someone low balling affects my ability to charge more as much as the client's understanding of what we deliver compared to what a quad and a gopro with an inexperienced pilot can offer. What is inevitable is that there will be many many more people doing this as time goes on and inherently there will be competition, saturation and a dilution of unique skill sets. When everyone has the ability to fly for 30 minutes and carry anything from a gopro to an Alexa and only need to know how to point forward with a stick, it's going to be a different world. I have already heard the frightening words from a few producers "I was just thinking of buying a phantom and doing it myself."

Keep your day job!

 

[jes1111]

It's going to take a while for the whole thing to settle. Same as when digital cameras arrived - hell, same as when 35mm compact cameras arrived, I expect. It takes a mature market to have stable prices.

Of course I agree that we should avoid a race to the bottom, not leave money on the table, etc... I'm guessing that main issue is people coming in to the business who are not, and have never been, photographers of any sort. And worse still... people who've never been photographers and never flown anything RC

What

 

[janoots2]

LOL - yeah, but my damn day job gets in the way of my aerials!
Bottom line (for me and what I've learned) is...if you plan on doing this as an "opportunity" then you need to learn quickly that there is another side of our "craft" - and that other side is a business - and that business is video/photo production - which puts you in a whole new world of networking, relationships, pricing structures and challenges. It doesn't matter how well you fly, or how much you spend on your rig, first of all it matters if you can SELL and if you can SELL your portfolio/demo...then you need to negotiate (part of selling) - and THAT depends on the size of the pill YOU want to swallow and your clients expectations (which then encompasses how well you fly and catch footage). Combine all this and learn how to edit, and you might find the results of an "opportunity" in your mailbox.

That said, there are different degrees and levels of ALL video/photo production out there (iPhone to GoPro to Nex5n to 5D to RED, etc...) - and there always will be. Model your craft and opportunity efforts on the foundation of all good producers/photographers (within your geography/market), and you have a shot at building a reputation leading to results.

Look at it as if we have a supercharged crane and and highly elevated tripod...

 

[Str8 Up]

A local brain surgeon placed a full page advert for $150 aerials using an S800 this week. His angle is flying over your kids sporting events. The end is in sight. I think I am just going to mail it to the local FSDO as a public service.

This past year several clients confessed that they tried the Phantom route and quickly found out that getting pro footage requires a pro rig/pilot.

 

[Kilby]

Str8 Up, where was this ad placed?

SMP, if you were to put a price on a minimum charge, what would it be and how would you break it down?

 

[econfly]

There is no stopping the marketplace from finding the equilibrium. If people don't care about quality, or if the technology makes quality easier to produce, then prices will fall for the relevant markets. There will always be those who demand the best and they pay for it. But nothing is going to keep prices up in market segments where quality is not considered worth the cost (or simply not valued). The wedding photography market makes that very clear.

 

[sixshooterstang]

This past year several clients confessed that they tried the Phantom route and quickly found out that getting pro footage requires a pro rig/pilot.

One of my clients said SCREW the Phantom and went straight for two 1000mm hexes to carry a 5d and Nikon D800. There was a lot of carnage before they hired me. Not a crash since.
Potential clients need to realize they need pro pilots to get this stuff done. Otherwise they are attempting to do something that is an equivalent of having your actors run the camera (with little to no given experience).

 

[dazzab]

The wedding photography market makes that very clear.

Good example. 25 years ago I worked in a studio that had an excellent reputation and very talented professional photographers. Guess what? They are still shooting weddings and they are still getting top dollar for them while dozens of wanna bees are out there doing the same for dirt cheap. I'm sure they are happy to let that cheap work go and to keep on providing the best quality for the appropriate price.

 

[Holger]

SMP, if you were to put a price on a minimum charge, what would it be and how would you break it down?

There was a really good write up a while ago, describing how realistic it is to earn top dollars with your new copter business, and explained well how he gets his price ( all costs incl. insurance, copter, car......)

By the life of me I can't find the link.
Thought it was here in this forum, but I might be wrong...

 

[jes1111]

There was a really good write up a while ago, describing how realistic it is to earn top dollars with your new copter business, and explained well how he gets his price ( all costs incl. insurance, copter, car......)

By the life of me I can't find the link.
Thought it was here in this forum, but I might be wrong...

This one? http://www.multirotorforums.com/sho...to-suceed-financially-long-term-as-a-creative

 

[Holger]

Yep, that is the one.
Read it again and still think it's an awesome write up.

 

[SMP]

Sorry about the rant guys, appreciate that you guys took the best spirit of the post.

I think the key is that there really should be two kinds of clients. Basically you have the biggies and the smallies. Chevron is a biggie. Universities with Football Programs and Television Broadcasts are biggies. Nascar is a biggie, Hotels that use your pic in an Ad in Conde Nast is a biggie. Local Car dealers are smallies, Real Estate (unless it's a 10 mil listing) usually a smallie, small local business wants an aerial shot of his storefront for his website, smallie.

The problem starts when we start charging biggies, smallie rates. Chevron is our largest client. I love Chevron. Chevron loves us. They have never ever ever given us a single break on a drop of gas. Not one tiny drop. I don't give them a break on one tiny pic. Its not about the sensor/platform, phantom, s800, skyjib. They love quality, and service and liability (and the lack thereof) which is why they keep doing business with us BUT please make no mistake ALL businesses are price sensitive, even Chevron. Our goal is to make sure we never turn Biggies into smallies.

UM is a great example. They needed TV rights which means broadcast cam. She wanted 1080/60p but TV needs 35mbps or better. That's a heavier camera than a typical S800. Here is a client who COULD afford to pay an industry rate, was prepared to pay an industry rate, got industry rate quotes and a PAIR of lowballs. I then had to spend an hour with her on the phone explaining why she wasn't getting apples to apples. Now she's confused, (its a silly techy world out there and Clients shouldn't have to understand acronyms) and has no idea who to trust; The two guys who lowballed her a friggen gopro/nex5 (which wasn't what they were after but she didn't know that) or the guy 3x the rate of the lowballer. Point being, this isnt a local car dealer. TV was the first clue. ATL - Above the Line advertising. Thats a googleable.

So for the smallies then. Actually lets talk about micros first. I've said this before. If you want to build your portfolio do it for free. No risk if you screw it up, no ethics about taking money to do something you may or may not be qualified for and if you hit it out of the park you both win! Let's call these Micros. The 300 dollar weddings, the real estate shoot. The little ones. Do em for free.

Ok onto the smallies guys. These are the local car dealers (NOT FORD MOTOR COMPANY), the local hotel that ISN'T running a Published ad. My take is you're gonna go out there, usually on a weekend and burn about 3-4 batteries and 3-4 hours getting ready, going there, doing the gig and then unpacking etc. (prolly all day but who's counting right). For sake of argument thats a half day guys, plus you've got post production, delivery etc etc etc. Do you really want to give that to them for 300? Do you really think thats only worth 1500? My personal take is, your guy wants it at 1500 but to be candid, he's ready to pay 4500. (Cause the cheapest full scale starts at 1500 per hour and doesn't come with a camera crew!) He's 3Gs in already and he knows it.

I know, I know THIS PARTICULAR client can't afford it...

You know musicians right? The brokest guys on the planet, eat top ramen, etc etc? They always want band pics, and album covers and music videos but damn they just cant afford it!!! Except that this guys got 10 foot pedals at 350-500 a piece and those 4-6 marshall amps behind him at 2500 bucks and up and yeah that 3500 dollar guitar and and etc etc... these broke *** guys travel around with 80 grand full of broke. People CAN AFFORD WHAT THEY WANT.

So heres what I'm suggesting for the GOPRO smallies: Camera Dumps, No Music Video, No NLE.
1 Flight 1500 bucks.
Half Day (3-4) Flights 4500 bucks
Full Day (8 Flights) 7000 bucks.

Guys these are businesses that CANT get these photos ANY OTHER WAY. And if you walked in to their store and bought what they were selling what does 7 grand look like. Part of ONE CAR sale. Half a motorcycle. 2 Computers. They can afford it, they got lots of pedals and amps and guitars...

So lets become the OPECs of the Digital Advertising world. No more money left on the table. No turning ourselves into 300 dollar wedding togs. Biggies get Industry rates. Smallies get the MRF rate and Micros get work for free.

Please feel free to disagree

 

[kloner]

Everything small in San Diego is destroyed price wise..... car dealers get commercials shot for hundreds..... days of it, high risk, lame.....real estate market is down to $199 with an edit.... Guys flying over crowds of people at marathons for free.....

 

[jes1111]

the guy 3x the rate of the lowballer

Only one third of your rate? That's just "stiff competition"! I've been low-balled (on top-end real estate stills) at less than the gasoline would cost me to get to the shoot!

Kinda interesting that you brought the musician analogy into the discussion. I know a lot of musicians - they'll do any gig for any money or even no money... until they "hit the big time", get a manager/deal/contract/guru and then they won't do anything for less than a gazillion up front and 50% of the gate

...which is kind of how this market seems to be playing: lowball your way into any jobs you can until you've got a killer reel and a half-way recognisable client-list, then deny your roots, behave like you were born with these skills and laugh off Phantoms as "mere toys".

You guys in the US better hope that the FAA pulls its thumb out of its backside and dreams up some stiff certification and insurance requirements - the stiffer and more expensive the better! I reckon that's the only thing that's going to keep the kids off your playing field

 

[SYNDK8]

Appreciate the post.

If you are working for a biggie then they will always have a media plan; where and when this production will aire and how many times (especially if you are doing the post production you will need to know this info for rights and licenses). This always makes it easier to price.

Unfortunately the lowballing will continue, with Obamas' estimate of 500,000 drones by 2015 and surveillance and war profits on the rise, UAV businesses are on the rise not just in film industry.

Also, just as how the Canon 5D changed things, the brushless gimbals have exploded on the film sets and many people are on board to take their chance at the copters and it if breaks, if salvageable, use the gimbal handheld Heck its pretty cheap compared to 5 years ago now, so why not.

Good RTF kits are available now and by summer we should see these selling in malls. Sometimes I think maybe there is more money in just selling the parts/kits.