Pricing - Please stop cutting our own throats.

[DucktileMedia]

Top gun quote: "Tell me something Maverick, are you a good pilot?" "I can hold my own". "Good, then I don't have to worry about you making money as a singer."

only now now im thinking we might be better taking singing lessons.

 

[tstrike]

View attachment 17656*This is from a couple weeks ago. Awsome, the dude must have made a buttload to be there and capture natures raw beauty...





View attachment 17657Hmmm, dudes not very high and he seems to be real close to base camp, maybe this isn't has hard as they say...



View attachment 17655Spot the pilot in this picture and you will also have spotted the talents stand in and what ever else the kid did for the production. He would fly it up, wiggle it over the road, then land it when the director was finished checking facebook and using the port-a-jon.

This stuff has become so common on sets, it's become an asterisk with TP at the bottom of a call sheet, something to shoot when A unit is breaking down set.
"yeah sure, we got 5 minutes, go and send it up". When camera shops started selling quadcopter gear, you had to know the salad days were coming to a close.


*all photos are the property of tstrike and may not be used without written consent.

 

[flyingbiscuit]

very true

This is an important discussion. I ahve already seen a start of the race to the bottom as far as pricing. 3 People on site for a days shoot is not cheap. Plus large insurance coverage and the usual expenses. If the phantom type (and not just phantoms but some have large machines) guys come in work illegally and drop there coverage to $1000 per day there will be no business, I have seen it happen. At this point we have decided to start reporting anyone operating illegally to the authorities. I suggest everyone does the same this is a big investment, for those doing it legally

 

[stitch1615]

This is an important discussion. I ahve already seen a start of the race to the bottom as far as pricing. 3 People on site for a days shoot is not cheap. Plus large insurance coverage and the usual expenses. If the phantom type (and not just phantoms but some have large machines) guys come in work illegally and drop there coverage to $1000 per day there will be no business, I have seen it happen. At this point we have decided to start reporting anyone operating illegally to the authorities. I suggest everyone does the same this is a big investment, for those doing it legally

Well then, competition has you so rattled that you not only want to video but you also want to be the" drone cop". That'll be an interesting job. You must not be in the United States because frankly no one can do it legally here yet, although that doesn't stop everyone. It's interesting how a hobby toy can be transformed into an object that brings out the very best in people. Do you also watch parking meters and handicapped parking spaces?

 

[tstrike]

At this point we have decided to start reporting anyone operating illegally to the authorities. I suggest everyone does the same this is a big investment, for those doing it legally

yeah and then report all the pa's who get a 5d slapped in their hands and told "aim it over there" to the ASC. I don't think anyone thought the barriers to entry in arial photography would come down so fast.

 

[Bowley]

Well then, competition has you so rattled that you not only want to video but you also want to be the" drone cop". That'll be an interesting job. You must not be in the United States because frankly no one can do it legally here yet, although that doesn't stop everyone. It's interesting how a hobby toy can be transformed into an object that brings out the very best in people. Do you also watch parking meters and handicapped parking spaces?

Dont be too harsh biscuit may not be located in the USA, wait till legislation and certification is in place in the US and its cost you thousands of dollars, time and effort. then you might think different about RTF Phantoms cutting your throat.

 

[stitch1615]

yeah and then report all the pa's who get a 5d slapped in their hands and told "aim it over there" to the ASC. I don't think anyone thought the barriers to entry in arial photography would come down so fast.

pa's, 5d, ASC ? Not sure what all those are but I'm never in favor of anyone holding themselves above anyone else for profit. I was a photographer for15 years and got undercut all the time. I just had to do better job and I still got top dollar.
I'm done.

 

[econfly]

Dont be too harsh biscuit may not be located in the USA, wait till legislation and certification is in place in the US and its cost you thousands of dollars, time and effort. then you might think different about RTF Phantoms cutting your throat.

That's how it works. First come the safety hand-wringers, then the laws, then the regulations, then the bureaucrats, then the licenses, taxes, fees and fines. Following all of that, the beaten down commoner embraces the bureaucracy and reports his fellow man for not submitting as much as he has himself. And that, in a nutshell, is how freedom turns to servitude -- and how capitalism and competition turn to mediocrity by decree.

 

[dazzab]

That's how it works. First come the safety hand-wringers, then the laws, then the regulations, then the bureaucrats, then the licenses, taxes, fees and fines.

There will always be those who do not value professionalism, experience and quality. If that's your market then yes, RTF flyers will be your competition. I don't think top restaurants are terribly concerned that McDonalds is making billions of dollars. The safety issue does worry me but that's going to sort itself out sooner or later after a few high profile incidents.

 

[Bowley]

That's how it works. First come the safety hand-wringers, then the laws, then the regulations, then the bureaucrats, then the licenses, taxes, fees and fines. Following all of that, the beaten down commoner embraces the bureaucracy and reports his fellow man for not submitting as much as he has himself. And that, in a nutshell, is how freedom turns to servitude -- and how capitalism and competition turn to mediocrity by decree.

Thats just life in a developed society, facts of life.

 

[flyingbiscuit]

It's interesting how a hobby toy can be transformed into an object that brings out the very best in people. Do you also watch parking meters and handicapped parking spaces?[/QUOTE]

Clearly you don't understand how the business will and has developed, we pay over 10,000 in insurance alone over 1000 per employee on basic training. Plus more as the regulations develop. Go ahead play with toys and lose out as we develop BLOS operations. We can make enough to cover basic ops cost by the daily rate stuff. All I want is a level playing field, if you are out competing with us, carry the legal costs required to operate with in the law, if not accept that you will be reported and fined.

And just as you all get excited by the idea of owning your own drone company, one thing that will happen is that large players that require drone ops have no interest in hiring 3rd party providers, flying drones doesn't require a phd, they can and do train there own employees to do this work, the only real business op here is in having drone software that is easy enough to reduce the training expediture and still comply witg the regulations and insurance company policy. If you are in that business you will make money and lots of it

 

[stitch1615]

Dammit, now I have to offer 11 minutes for $499.

Ahh, but the challenge is getting $499 for 9 minutes.

 

[stitch1615]

Clearly you don't understand how the business will and has developed, we pay over 10,000 in insurance alone over 1000 per employee on basic training.

Fact is I do indeed understand how business's develop. I also understand that you can drive yourself batsh*t crazy worrying about what everyone else is doing when you should be planning and developing your own strategies and business plan.
If your stuff is good enough, and if you find your market, you'll thrive and survive. If you become known in the community as a trouble maker and a general PITA, even potential clients will steer away from you to avoid legal ramifications. THAT my friend is how business works.

 

[DucktileMedia]

Allow me to divert from the usual banter, since it's kind of a pointless task to get someone who is not on this forum to charge more for their quad footage.

What are your thoughts on asking the production company to take liability on your flights? As I have backed off substantially from flying these days I cant afford insurance that would do more than allow me to say "I have insurance." Is there a simple way without adding us as an additionally insured on their policy? It would make so much more sense since the producers have hefty coverage anyways. I hate all this doubling of insurances, I see it all the time in my primary business.

If a waiver were to be enough protection for the pilot I could see a reduced rate being more acceptable.

 

[stitch1615]

What are your thoughts on asking the production company to take liability on your flights?

We do this all the time when we have motorcycle fund raisers. It is generally easily accepted by the venue and a has lot more potential for disaster then flying around with a fairly proven concept quad copter.

Waivers are ok but depending on crowd size may be an impossible task.
Just keep an eye open for the "Copter Cops". :upset:

Good thought.

 

[Miami Aerial]

Once the FAA writes the regulations and decides on licensing and permitting fees, many of the amateurs and kids will drop out and the market will be left for we who are committed to the industry.

As far as our fee structure, we are photographers who use UAVs as a new device in our tool box. So, we have a creative fee for the photographer's creative mind, production fees, UAV charter fee (starting at a half-day, no less, which includes the aircraft, pilot, camera system and camera operator), and digital service fee for processing and delivery (both of which take personnel time), etc.

We at Miami Aerial have been interested in forming a trade group specific to photographers who utilize UAVs in their work. In that way, we can set pricing guidelines, not specific amounts (which is considered "price fixing", a federal offense) in the manner of American Society of Media Photographers (ASMP), or APA (American Photographic Artists) PPA (Picture Professionals of America).

 

[DucktileMedia]

I'm not convinced that any immediate regulations will keep the 100's of 1000's of amateurs from accepting money for oddball gigs. It's not like you have to take-off from an FAA airport to get one in the air. There are many many projects on closed course locations that no one would ever know about. It's kinda like drugs, how many people really dont smoke pot because it's illegal? If someone just spent $5k on flying "toys" they are going to justify any means to fly them. Without the government enforcing regulations there is no way they will know, right? I think it is the hope that the "pros" will all of the sudden own the playing field when the regulations come into law. What I see being more probable is that the work for drones will be 10-20 times what it is now. Production companies will start owning and operating their own equipment. Those that are playing hardball with full insurance and FAA certified rigs are going to be competing for feature film/high end commercials. And that niche is going to get filled very quickly as it is all about who you know not what you know.

Here's a different way of putting all of this, and we are ALL guilty of it. You spent a bunch of money on something and didnt know jack squat about how to make it work without doing research from this forum or talking to others that have been doing it longer than you. Now, ALL OF THE SUDDEN, we are professionals!? Just in my time on this forum I have seen some people call me up and ask how to bind their receiver to now calling themselves pros flying a disco and a gopro. Everyone wants to be the best and the first. We all pretend that this is rocket science when 99% of us copy tried and true cookie cutter helicopter setups that most have used with success. Cinestar and a gh3? You are a pro, right? As someone pointed out, it doesnt take a PHD to fly a drone. It will only get easier. Some people choose to be obnoxious about it and others take time to pass the knowledge down to the next guy.

The root of this thread is someone doing this professionally was threatened by the saturation of this highly sought after field of work. There is a lot of talent out there, there are even more impulsive idiots. I think for the aggressive business there is still tons of work to be had. but we will no doubt be sharing our clients. And perhaps the game of networking is the most important part of this business. We have to change with the times. Unless you are one of the few who can create the electronics for these helis, you are basically a dog in the pit.

It would be nice if everyone came together and mutually agreed to certain parameters to sustain a thrive-able business. We certainly have the ability to do so, it just that people are selfish and impulsive which is really the start of all the worlds problems. In the end, who doesnt want to get paid to fly an RC helicopter with a camera on it??

 

[flyingbiscuit]

Allow me to divert from the usual banter, since it's kind of a pointless task to get someone who is not on this forum to charge more for their quad footage.

What are your thoughts on asking the production company to take liability on your flights? As I have backed off substantially from flying these days I cant afford insurance that would do more than allow me to say "I have insurance." Is there a simple way without adding us as an additionally insured on their policy? It would make so much more sense since the producers have hefty coverage anyways. I hate all this doubling of insurances, I see it all the time in my primary business.

If a waiver were to be enough protection for the pilot I could see a reduced rate being more acceptable.

That s a nice thought but won't happen, part of certification requires your company to hold the required insurance, not a third party. You might be able to get them to insure the payload separately, although most insurance companies won't insure cameras on a drone and rental house policies are mostly excluding UAV's as clause, you might find a few that have legacy policys that don't mention UAV's but many are being re written. (prodco's tend to run away from insuring anything if they can)
As you will probably see the industry will be defined in part by regulations and in part by the cost of insurance. Many small ops operate without the required certification and insurance. Insurance rates are high now and will skyrocket when the first major accidents start making press and lawsuits come in. (anything that has lethal impact force will be particularly vulnerable, which is a vast majority of the market, you will start see specific equipment requirements defined by insurance companies before the FAA or whoever) What you don't want is to start the expectation of $1000 flights being the norm when insurance may be 33% of that cost before your man power (and by regulation in class C we require 3 man operation) costs are included.

 

[Cra-Z-1]

Here's a different way of putting all of this, and we are ALL guilty of it. You spent a bunch of money on something and didnt know jack squat about how to make it work without doing research from this forum or talking to others that have been doing it longer than you. Now, ALL OF THE SUDDEN, we are professionals!? Just in my time on this forum I have seen some people call me up and ask how to bind their receiver to now calling themselves pros flying a disco and a gopro. Everyone wants to be the best and the first. We all pretend that this is rocket science when 99% of us copy tried and true cookie cutter helicopter setups that most have used with success. Cinestar and a gh3? You are a pro, right? As someone pointed out, it doesnt take a PHD to fly a drone. It will only get easier. Some people choose to be obnoxious about it and others take time to pass the knowledge down to the next guy.

The root of this thread is someone doing this professionally was threatened by the saturation of this highly sought after field of work. There is a lot of talent out there, there are even more impulsive idiots. I think for the aggressive business there is still tons of work to be had. but we will no doubt be sharing our clients. And perhaps the game of networking is the most important part of this business. We have to change with the times. Unless you are one of the few who can create the electronics for these helis, you are basically a dog in the pit.

It would be nice if everyone came together and mutually agreed to certain parameters to sustain a thrive-able business. We certainly have the ability to do so, it just that people are selfish and impulsive which is really the start of all the worlds problems. In the end, who doesnt want to get paid to fly an RC helicopter with a camera on it??

Pretty much exactly my take, reading all these posts. I"m no professional by any means, but like so many others, I'm very interested in all of it; even just flying.

It "seems" like arrogance is about as bliss as ignorance, reading some of these responses; the same thing keeps coming to mind...every one of you guys "Started Somewhere". I don't give a damn what your story was. I guarantee one thing; if you came in to it new and found this wonderful place to ask all these knowledgeable people questions so that you could build on your own, and all you seen was arrogant remarks about how they think the FAA should restrict your access, in somehow giving those who supposedly "deserve it" all the rights to film it, you would be offended also; as if YOU just deserve it above anyone else. Bureaucracy at its best...

I get it; you want to "Get Paid" for all of the investment you put into "doing it right". Then DONT SUCK at it. You compared the market to the market of the Price of Gasoline. Really?? Because maybe you should think about just how bad we all HATE paying those exhorbitant prices, and you KNOW how bad we all hate the gas companies for socking it to us the way they do. The thing is; they get away with that "for awhile", and then what happens is, the Smart Car, Hybrids, and "all electrics". If you don't want to go obsolete, then "balance the scale".

 

[stitch1615]

In that way, we can set pricing guidelines, not specific amounts (which is considered "price fixing", a federal offense)

Unless you are an oil company.