Nab 2013****

Stacky

Member
What I am seeing right now in this industry is what I went through in the mid 90's when photography changed from film to digital.
I had spent a few years at art college, then a number of years as an assistant and then started out on my own at the beginning of the 90's. Because assistant wages were so low when it came to starting out on my own I had very little gear and had to buy a lot of expensive lighting and medium and large format film cameras on hire purchase. It meant for the first 5 or 6 years of my photography career I was heavily in debt.
Unfortunately for me within 6 months of paying off my large format Sinar camera the photography world started to go digital. I needed to keep up so then found myself having to buy digital cameras which within 6 to 12 months were obsolete and those early digital cameras for pro use were very expensive. On top of that every time I bought a new camera I needed the latest computer to handle the increasing file sizes. I remember at one point paying over $1000 for an extra 250mb of ram.
It was simply a money pit for about 10 or so years and to compound the issue photography fees were under pressure because of a huge increase in numbers wanting to do it as a career, fueled by the digital age. As well as that the "home publishing" era had started and photography with the new cameras meant that much simple work I used to do was now able to be done in house.
I essentially lost a decade of income just trying to tread water.

I am watching the exact same thing happen right now. The zenmuse gimbal being a good example and now probably FreeFlys latest effort. Also quads such as the Phantom are helping bring more people in to the hobby and that in turn means more people thinking about the possibilities available for commercial uses.
So the lessons I learned in the digital photography switch over I need to try and follow now in the multirotor thing we are all trying to do. What lessons are they?. Well the first one is to be aware this is another money pit right now and if you dont have the work for your machines already in place, dont buy the latest gear hoping it will generate the work you want. If you dont already have the clients that will supply you with the work dont expect the latest gear to magically bring clients to you. Stay within your client base level of work until such a time as you know that any new gear can pay for itself within a year at most.
There will be a small percentage of people doing this who will be able to make the latest gear pay for itself quickly but the majority of us will discover that after investing $20k in gear a year later will have only made $5k in profit from that gear and when technology is going through a steep growth curve in an industry as it is now.

I started out in this 2 1/2 years ago, currently I am only just in the black with respect to how much i have spent and how much I have invoiced, if I was to account for how much time and effort I have invested I would be horribly in the red. So for me at present the AP side of things is not a viable commercial entity, its not actually providing me with an income on its own. Its become an add on to what I do. I think it might possibly be something that can generate a liveable income but I also know it might just be a money pit with respect to my situation and circumstances.




I'm interested in your thoughts on this one. I haven't bought the 3 axis gimbal and radians but I was just about to!! There is such a difference in the cost of the new and the 'old'. Can't afford either just now but I will in the near future. Do you think the 'old' is no longer relevant and will be quickly superceded? It will if the price changes but maybe not just at the moment. What to do?
 

tstrike

pendejo grande
Well said Stacky.

i have a shooter friend who's got a closet with 250,000.00 worth of Arri BL535 body's he can't use and refuses to sell at the current market price.
There will always be clients who insist on shooting with the latest greatest, but as a photographer how's it make you feel when some pasty white office creatives
feel it's what their product "needs" to be a success?
 


Kari

Member
What I am seeing right now in this industry is what I went through in the mid 90's when photography changed from film to digital.
I had spent a few years at art college, then a number of years as an assistant and then started out on my own at the beginning of the 90's. Because assistant wages were so low when it came to starting out on my own I had very little gear and had to buy a lot of expensive lighting and medium and large format film cameras on hire purchase. It meant for the first 5 or 6 years of my photography career I was heavily in debt.
Unfortunately for me within 6 months of paying off my large format Sinar camera the photography world started to go digital. I needed to keep up so then found myself having to buy digital cameras which within 6 to 12 months were obsolete and those early digital cameras for pro use were very expensive. On top of that every time I bought a new camera I needed the latest computer to handle the increasing file sizes. I remember at one point paying over $1000 for an extra 250mb of ram.
It was simply a money pit for about 10 or so years and to compound the issue photography fees were under pressure because of a huge increase in numbers wanting to do it as a career, fueled by the digital age. As well as that the "home publishing" era had started and photography with the new cameras meant that much simple work I used to do was now able to be done in house.
I essentially lost a decade of income just trying to tread water.

I am watching the exact same thing happen right now. The zenmuse gimbal being a good example and now probably FreeFlys latest effort. Also quads such as the Phantom are helping bring more people in to the hobby and that in turn means more people thinking about the possibilities available for commercial uses.
So the lessons I learned in the digital photography switch over I need to try and follow now in the multirotor thing we are all trying to do. What lessons are they?. Well the first one is to be aware this is another money pit right now and if you dont have the work for your machines already in place, dont buy the latest gear hoping it will generate the work you want. If you dont already have the clients that will supply you with the work dont expect the latest gear to magically bring clients to you. Stay within your client base level of work until such a time as you know that any new gear can pay for itself within a year at most.
There will be a small percentage of people doing this who will be able to make the latest gear pay for itself quickly but the majority of us will discover that after investing $20k in gear a year later will have only made $5k in profit from that gear and when technology is going through a steep growth curve in an industry as it is now.

I started out in this 2 1/2 years ago, currently I am only just in the black with respect to how much i have spent and how much I have invoiced, if I was to account for how much time and effort I have invested I would be horribly in the red. So for me at present the AP side of things is not a viable commercial entity, its not actually providing me with an income on its own. Its become an add on to what I do. I think it might possibly be something that can generate a liveable income but I also know it might just be a money pit with respect to my situation and circumstances.

Stacky, you just wrote all my thoughts, i couldn't agree more. I've also invested all high end film hasselblad gear at end of 90's, then sinar digital backs, then phase one... all very expensive gear, and not one of my clients are willing to pay for the difference if i just shot them with Canons and cheap lenses. I don't keep $15K that expensive for real professional gear, actually it's just couple of batteries for Arri. BUT, imo cinestar gimbal has been way behind this level in "professional gear". What i really don't get at all, why suddenly cinestar 360 gimbal with 3 brushless motors cost ten times more. I have radians for all three axis and it's been working well, how it is now so much more expensive to do that same with brushless motors? I'll definitely wait for other options what we'll see very soon a lot. Now i'll keep testing how big cameras we can go with alexmos board and cheap gimbals. Love these cheap diy alternatives combined with creativity.
 
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llbr22

Member
For me I just like helping pay back my hobby and having a creative outlet.


I used to sell high end cameras like Varicam @$76k a while back. What some shooters would do is lease the camera say for $500 mo. Then rent it out 3 times a month for $200-300. Plus they still shot with it when it wasn't booked.


Sent from my HTC One X
 

ChrisViperM

Active Member
thanks Chris, sorry I couldn't be more positive about the show. You got that Kratos yet?

Thanks again, but your impression from the NAB are just pretty much what I expected....lots of superstars loosing their contact to the ground....but that makes space for other talents:
http://www.multirotorforums.com/showthread.php?10768-Handheld-stabilization


Will get the Kratos within the next couple of weeks....I told them not to rush things, rather wait a bit and get a good product. I will go there myself to pick it up, look at their workshop and spend some good time with them. They are really great guys....



Chris
 

Stacky, you just wrote all my thoughts, i couldn't agree more. I've also invested all high end film hasselblad gear at end of 90's, then sinar digital backs, then phase one... all very expensive gear, and not one of my clients are willing to pay for the difference if i just shot them with Canons and cheap lenses. I don't keep $15K that expensive for real professional gear, actually it's just couple of batteries for Arri. BUT, imo cinestar gimbal has been way behind this level in "professional gear". What i really don't get at all, why suddenly cinestar 360 gimbal with 3 brushless motors cost ten times more. I have radians for all three axis and it's been working well, how it is now so much more expensive to do that same with brushless motors? I'll definitely wait for other options what we'll see very soon a lot. Now i'll keep testing how big cameras we can go with alexmos board and cheap gimbals. Love these cheap diy alternatives combined with creativity.

Hi Kari, often price is not connected to cost but rather what the market will withstand. That said I am sure the development costs are significant. But whilst the likes of Vincent Laforet and others call this product a 'game changer' I am sure there are many that can make this price pay in the very short term. I think what we are all saying, for those that can't, don't go there and we probably won't have to wait too long for more affordable solutions. (The only comments I had with my hugely expensive Phase One back years ago were clients complaining about the files sizes!!!)
 

Kari

Member
Hi Kari, often price is not connected to cost but rather what the market will withstand. That said I am sure the development costs are significant. But whilst the likes of Vincent Laforet and others call this product a 'game changer' I am sure there are many that can make this price pay in the very short term. I think what we are all saying, for those that can't, don't go there and we probably won't have to wait too long for more affordable solutions. (The only comments I had with my hugely expensive Phase One back years ago were clients complaining about the files sizes!!!)

Exactly, as long as this is sort of add on for me it would not pay itself back in reasonable time. If i paid 20K for Phase One back it's still my main tool after 6 years, because there's not really much to improve. But with movi i can't see that we would not see mechanically better products coming out in a year or two, that makes me rally think is it worth purchase for me or not. No chinese or hobbyist can do Phase One digital back clone, but i'm sure we will see a lot of alternatives in next moths. And i have no any proves MOVI will work in real life that well with epic size cameras, my Cinestar frame and Cinestar gimbal have both needed serious modifications and add ons to get them work well, also Cinestar gimbal is way underrated for Epic size cameras imho. Movi is based on same tubes and clamps, and i'm not really impressed of that part. For this price range i would expect improvement for mechanical construction too. I'm sure electronics in MOVI are unbeatable, but 14K for this simple electronics is a lot. Well yeah, compared to this piece of hifi cable movi is a bargain ;) http://www.mareks.fi/nordost-odin-valijohto-0-6m-1-5m.html
 

JLO

Member
Hello to all so DJi, Hover Fly, Freefly and others are coming out with new products but any one knows what if any Microkopter is doing, is the MK world stop at their current line up of FC, Bl ctrl, Mk frames etc
any one..
 


Droider

Drone Enthusiast
@ Tstrike. Thanks for posting your reports.
Pesonaly I am in the same boat as Stacky. There is no way I can afford to throw that kind og wedge at a mount like that UNTIL there is a contract there that will more than pay for it.

I was on the Quadcopters stand at BVE at Excel this year. I was manic three days I did not have dinner or even during show hours have a pee, such was the interest. I had a couple of videos playing along with a show reel and although it was not filmed with a cinema grade camera it had peoples jaws dropping. What it was doing is showing the potential. Maybe we had two or three interested in flying a Red sized camera but they came from Nollywood or other such far away places I have no interest in going. The vast majority wanted it for web based content, promo vids etc. Thats where the quick money is and for that you most certainly dont need to spend 14K!
 

tstrike

pendejo grande
Here's one that demo'd at NAB but I didn't see it. Video looks interesting...
Made in England too, and is all mechanical!
 
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hjls3

Member
that looks pretty impressive. also looks like a mechanical solution instead of gyros and motors. wonder what it cost - surely a whole lot less than a Movi. edit - see that you stated its mechanical. oops. id like to try it.

Here's one that demo'd at NAB but I didn't see it. Video looks interesting...
Made in England too, and is all mechanical!
 
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jetbootz

Member
I imagine we will never see the hero line from photohigher . last year I emailed them and was told prices as below. with the Movi from freefly now out, I guess PH top end line is finished and who would pay 4K for a gopro gimbal when you can get them for 200 bucks in a month or so ????? even DJI's prices seem cheap compared to the hero line.

gopro 4000 USD
nex5 15 - 20 K USD
5D version : quote :

The Hero 3000 would be the gimbal you need for the 5D. Please note these gimbals are not a hobby product they will be aimed at the high end of the market and will have outstanding stabilisation built in to them. The cost for the Hero 3000 will be somewhere between $30,000 and 50,000.00

 

ChrisViperM

Active Member

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Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
rocjock, i've got a less expensive option up my sleeve. i'll have a prototype system to test in a few weeks. it's not what you might expect but it's going to be an entirely new option and it makes a lot of sense to me! :)

bart
 

Has anyone seen the new gimbal Hoverfly announced at NAB in Vegas last week? Called the OBSIDIAN. It looks like its Red Epic camera ready for those of us flying cameras of similar size and weight. No price as far as I can see. But if its under 5K it could be a great contender.

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