Help with Building a CineStar 8 (& Copters in General)

[jes1111]

Take 2

So then, why is a Droidworx SkyJib 8 that can lift an EPIC/Scarlet in the $20K-$25K range?

Exactly! Crazy, isn't it? It's for the same reason that you can easily spend more on some simple bits of machined aluminium to support a Canon 5D than the damn camera itself cost.

 

[E-Copter]

Hi,

each vendor has his machines and commercial proposals, some propose building and setup services... so there is lot that could be discussed

Now on the technical point of view:

If yu never had a multirotor and are not used to Rc models, the best advise hs been written in earlier post: get a F450 or 550, and learn from it. Additionally, register to a local AMA affiliated flying club where you will find help and be able to fly with safety and even buddy box in some clubs to learn how to fly. If you plan to use a Mikrokopter board, then you can use a simple Mikrokopter quad frame, with 4 bl controllers and use the MIkrokopter board but it will ot be as easy to build and setup as a DJi naza... Most important is to take a transmitter and a charger you can keep

As long as you are not able to fly all directions safely ( nose in included), it's not worth willing to fly anything larger and definitly not a camera under a multirotor ( safety...)

Once you would get used to these, and become familiar with changing mtor shaft, props, make solderings, programm your transmitter... then you can move and upgrade with a better flight controller. YOu have to know that whatever controller you will choose will be a real challenge: most of them can fly approximatively " out of the box" but they ALL, with no exception, need fine tuning and presets depending of the payload / camera taht will need to be done. I know some companies that sell " full ready to fly" solutions but once you are alone with your UAV, you have to cope with it Hopefully, some good vendors will bring you support and solutions.

Regarding the Transmitter, you need a multirotor " supported" transmitter by the community and i think that saying you shall look after Graupner MC 20 / MX 20 would be a good start: the trasmitter has all Mikrokopter telemetry built in and Graupner gives the protocols and technical documentation to the manufacturers who ask for it ( we asked it for the flight controller we developped and did get the complete telemetry and protocols documentations within 24 hours !!) . Also, HOTT system is very reliable, with a GR 16 receiver ( Sbus or Dbus, meaning just one wire to the controller that carry all the channels + one cable for telemetry) you ave up to 2000 meters radio efficiency. With a GR 24 you get up to 4 kilometer. and now the have the GR diversity, top of the range, offering really high reliability..

Also, Graupner transmitters ( Hott series) offer a very nice feature : you can " bind" a buddy / trainer transmitter, wireles, or even use a standard MX10 transmitter for examle and use the SUMM signal of it's receiver to plug in the trainer port of your own transmitter. This way, you can control the gimbal when taking off to adjust the camera position ( lens up) and then give control to the cameraman once in flight.. We uses this and it works pretty well

Regarding the video converters :
Black Magic also offers mini converters, one of them is SDI to Analog and catehs up anything SDI, including HD SDI ( 3 gb). IT converts to Alanog and you can switch the Y/P/B to svideo and composite also with this unit. In a few words, you need only one converter and an analog small transmitter.

Regarding frames : well here, as i'm involved in the business , i prefer to remain silent as i want to stay neutral as i'm on this forum as a " tourist". Just read the forum, and listen to the ones who know, i think there is enough informations that you can cross to make yourself a good idea of what you could use in the future, once you are comfortable with multirotors building , setup, use and maintenance. To be honnest, a multirotors is jut 2 plates, some arms and motors and props and a gimbal... A 5 years old child could assemble it. Then, to assemble it correctly you need some patience and common sense, but not an engineering degree. Once you start to go in the electronics setup, tis canbecome a large headache and this is why you need first to get used to these with a smaller bird.

Finally, the best thing would be that maybe you try to find someone flying a multirotor "professionaly" and spend a bit of time to see how things are ( preparation of the machine, maintenance, usage..) before you take any decision. But you will need a camera / gimbal operator with you, all time, except i you just make pictures. For video, it's more than needed, to get good results, and also for safety. If you check your field monitor and something goes wrong or the machine approach from a obstacle, you will hardly be able to do something .

Operating such a machine is not impossible and is not so hard, as long as you start with the bases of.. RC multirotor and build up your experience step by step until you are comfortable with all aspect and responsability of using such hardware.

It's a nice project you have and with a bit of time, efforts and patience there is no doubt you will be able to bring this project to life

Best regards and all my wish of success,

Fabien

 

[Brian Iannone]

Thank you Fabien extraordinarily for the in-depth reply! I really do appreciate your help, but I must say that I'm sold on the idea of going straight to a CS8 of that previous setup. According to the general consensus, it's quite a not-so-good idea, I know... But, I'd like to try it out and see what happens.

Regarding the video converters :
Black Magic also offers mini converters, one of them is SDI to Analog and catehs up anything SDI, including HD SDI ( 3 gb). IT converts to Alanog and you can switch the Y/P/B to svideo and composite also with this unit. In a few words, you need only one converter and an analog small transmitter.

I had taken a look at Blackmagic's SDI to Analog Mini Converter, but was perplexed as to how to power it while on an octocopter. Is there a way to use the onboard LiPo batteries to supply power to this device?

Also, it seems to me that building the octocopter will be a piece of cake. It's configuring the electronics and calibrating things that will be tricky. Is there anyone in the Southern California area I can run to help to if (err... once) I encounter issues?

 

[Brian Iannone]

By the way, I think one of my previous questions got lost in all my posts.

Here it is...

So, here is my plan. [EXTRACTED] I will buy a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and use that solely as my aerial camera.

I'd like to use WooKong-M. I'd also like to use CineStar's 3-Axis Camera Gimbal with their Radian Stabilizers. And I'd like to configure this in a one-transmitter setup. (Yes, I realize how difficult it will be for one person to control both the octocopter and the gimbal, but for now, a one-radio system is my only option.) I'm just full of bad ideas, aren't I?

So, what I'm not sure I quite understand is what type of motors should be used to lift a 3.2 to 3.7 kg payload (the Blackmagic Camera and an SDI to SD converter).

Can I use KW10 motors on the CS8? And if so, what advantages do they offer over the KW8 other than greater lift capability? And if I do go with KW10s, what propellors and ESCs would you recommend I use?

And by the way, thank you Lanzar for those answers. I really do appreciate your expertise with this!

 

[sim_io]

Be prepared to consume your time with the helis. You're going to have to eat, sleep and breathe helis. Read up as many posts as you can (here and rcgroups multi) but even if you've read everything you still need to learn how to solder, use heat shrink and flux, know the kind of gauge wires you need to make a power distribution board. You're probably going to scratch your head 50 times building these things, you're going to run into obstacles not mentioned in this forum, specially the basic r/c that isn't usually discussed on a specific forum like this. The fastest way to get a CS8 in the air is patience, get that 450 in the air first and master it, it might take you many months to get where you need to be.

 

[Brian Iannone]

Be prepared to consume your time with the helis. You're going to have to eat, sleep and breathe helis. Read up as many posts as you can (here and rcgroups multi) but even if you've read everything you still need to learn how to solder, use heat shrink and flux, know the kind of gauge wires you need to make a power distribution board. You're probably going to scratch your head 50 times building these things, you're going to run into obstacles not mentioned in this forum, specially the basic r/c that isn't usually discussed on a specific forum like this. The fastest way to get a CS8 in the air is patience, get that 450 in the air first and master it, it might take you many months to get where you need to be.

Could you possibly elaborate on these power distribution boards? Are these things that can be bought or must they be made?

 

[jes1111]

Whoa! Power Distribution Board? Not on a super-heavy lifter, please!

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...King_Quadcopter_Power_Distribution_Board.html

These silly little things are a solution looking for a problem - except they very often become the problem themselves. They are supposed to simplify the neat wiring of power coming from your batteries on its way to the ESCs. Fact is, they are entirely unnecessary on any size of copter - just a fad (and a cop-out for people that can't or won't learn to solder properly). On a big machine like you're contemplating they are a potential disaster - there isn't one offered for sale anywhere (that I've seen) that can handle the total current your bird will pull at full throttle. They are just a bad idea that has somehow taken root such that they now appear on most user's shopping lists and just about every online shop.

There are plenty of threads here about power distribution - a search should reveal them (although the search facility is a bit challenged).

Avoid!

 

[Brian Iannone]

Whoa! Power Distribution Board? Not on a super-heavy lifter, please!

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...King_Quadcopter_Power_Distribution_Board.html

These silly little things are a solution looking for a problem - except they very often become the problem themselves. They are supposed to simplify the neat wiring of power coming from your batteries on its way to the ESCs. Fact is, they are entirely unnecessary on any size of copter - just a fad (and a cop-out for people that can't or won't learn to solder properly). On a big machine like you're contemplating they are a potential disaster - there isn't one offered for sale anywhere (that I've seen) that can handle the total current your bird will pull at full throttle. They are just a bad idea that has somehow taken root such that they now appear on most user's shopping lists and just about every online shop.

There are plenty of threads here about power distribution - a search should reveal them (although the search facility is a bit challenged).

Avoid!

All right, I shall stay clear of them. Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[E-Copter]

Thank you Fabien extraordinarily for the in-depth reply! I really do appreciate your help, but I must say that I'm sold on the idea of going straight to a CS8 of that previous setup. According to the general consensus, it's quite a not-so-good idea, I know... But, I'd like to try it out and see what happens.



I had taken a look at Blackmagic's SDI to Analog Mini Converter, but was perplexed as to how to power it while on an octocopter. Is there a way to use the onboard LiPo batteries to supply power to this device?

Also, it seems to me that building the octocopter will be a piece of cake. It's configuring the electronics and calibrating things that will be tricky. Is there anyone in the Southern California area I can run to help to if (err... once) I encounter issues?

Hi,

i'm in France, but if ou are not too far away from San Jose, my partner David Cook, who is literraly a multirotor geek ( lol ) could help you on these ? He is used to setup DJI and Mikrokopter boards but will also be able to give you some good advises on what to do, and what NOT to do lol !
But one more time, i would highly suggest that you get used at least for piloting and acquiring a first experience with a cheapo thing like a small F450 or even F330, you will not regret it. It's always more expensive to crash a Cinestar 8 for learning rather than a cheapo DJI Fxxx

For the mini converters, they can be power supplied with a small adjustable BEc in general as internaly they work at 5 or 12 V in most cases. I'll ask them to see what power feed is required

BEst regards,

Fabien

 

[Brian Iannone]

Hi,

i'm in France, but if ou are not too far away from San Jose, my partner David Cook, who is literraly a multirotor geek ( lol ) could help you on these ? He is used to setup DJI and Mikrokopter boards but will also be able to give you some good advises on what to do, and what NOT to do lol !
But one more time, i would highly suggest that you get used at least for piloting and acquiring a first experience with a cheapo thing like a small F450 or even F330, you will not regret it. It's always more expensive to crash a Cinestar 8 for learning rather than a cheapo DJI Fxxx

For the mini converters, they can be power supplied with a small adjustable BEc in general as internaly they work at 5 or 12 V in most cases. I'll ask them to see what power feed is required

BEst regards,

Fabien

Thanks for the info Fabien! That'd be awesome if you could find out if the Mini Converter could be powered from that source. Thanks!

 

[Brian Iannone]

So, another question for all of you. It's actually more of a pre-question, but I need to ask it before asking my actual question... (Confusing, sorry.)

Transmitters have two controllers on them; one on the left and one on the right. What parts of the multicopter do each of these control?

(It's a basic question, I know. But again, this is just a pre-question...)

Thanks!

 

[kloner]

with a normal mode2 radio like sold in the states, the left stick is up and down elevation aka collective as in a heli and rudder. The right side does foreward, backwards, left and right tilt like a cyclic on a heli.

 

[Brian Iannone]

with a normal mode2 radio like sold in the states, the left stick is up and down elevation aka collective as in a heli and rudder. The right side does foreward, backwards, left and right tilt like a cyclic on a heli.

All right, so my question now is, how does this work in a one-radio setup when a single person needs to control both the multicopter and a camera gimbal?

 

[kloner]

pros use two people....... Amatuers learn how to deal with it. these things got a lot going on all at once. I've been into rc since i was 11, i'm 42. Have flown rc since 1992, started with helicopters and still fly single rotors today, 3d planes, and i still get flustered and screwed up but when everything is going my way, i can risk alot and not be risking alot..... make since? My odds of pulling it off are pretty good no matter if your just trying to fly or get crazy with the stuff. nothing easy about any of it but anything is possible.

if you ever get a rig and want to come see what fpv is about, come meet me in the desert, i'll show ya around

 

[Brian Iannone]

pros use two people.......

And if that's not an option? lol

EDIT:

Hmm... All right, I see. So is it technically possible to control both the aircraft the the camera gimbal using one transmitter? I was looking through some of the product manuals on DJI's site and they provide instructions for one-radio setups.

Though, I'm just wondering how one would control both with a single transmitter since it seems like you'd need three sticks for that.

 

[kloner]

i thought you were asking how do you do it as a human, not is it possible to setup. I use a tilt gimble but all i got to choose from is down, straight ahead or up. the gyro stabilized part is automatic. but if you need to tilt the cam while the pilot is panning, then your gonna either get really good or you'll crash trying. Two radios going into one craft is how they realy control it all, two people, etc.

 

[Brian Iannone]

i thought you were asking how do you do it as a human, not is it possible to setup. I use a tilt gimble but all i got to choose from is down, straight ahead or up. the gyro stabilized part is automatic. but if you need to tilt the cam while the pilot is panning, then your gonna either get really good or you'll crash trying. Two radios going into one craft is how they realy control it all, two people, etc.

I see. And you use only one transmitter? If so, do you use the left stick for the multicopter and the right for the gimbal?

 

[3dheliguy]

Also, I have a hypothetical question unrelated to my question in the post above... It seems that the CineStar 8 with KW8 or KW10 motors is capable of lifting an EPIC or Scarlet. A CS8 setup like this seems to me like it's in the the $10K-$15K range. So then, why is a Droidworx SkyJib 8 that can lift an EPIC/Scarlet in the $20K-$25K range?

And, thank you immensely for the help 3dheliguy.

That all comes down to cost of the system and redundancy, what most people fail to realize is redundancy, and how to make our systems safe to carry such weight and actually fly longer than 3 minutes......Redundancy with these systems is key, and that means how many backup systems or quality of components to create back up so you don't fall out of the sky and destroy your MR, or seriously injure someone. The biggest problem people are having is that when you start throwing tons of weight huge power hungry motors that are sucking down so many MAH that battery basically is turning into mush in front of your eyes, and knowing that your flight times along with your whole system is heating, and basically melting in front of your eyes is a very bad thing.

Also if you throw in the fact that your flying a system that ways nearly 25lbs plus... Well your in for some serious headaches, and that is why these systems cost this much. Redundancy to me and so many others means having the ability to fly safely and to make sure that when flying these rigs there are backup systems and connections that will not fail on us. The option of having a Skyjib fall to the earth for other reasons than piloting error are not even plausible for me, and to make sure of that we want safety.

The wingspan of a sky jib is measured diagonally from motor C to motor C... Your Cinestar stock measures I believe around 900mm or maybe a bit more, but it is the lightest of the big rigs giving it an advantage over some, but also it is very robust sort of like an armored car, now imagine a rig that almost ways double that, and is 1130mm long swinging 15 inch props and is built like M1 A1 tank.

Not to mention you haven't added any electronics or gimbal or anything else... So what you have is a massively big rig weighin 25 lbs with not even a camera on it, now you want to put a 50000 camera. Now you have 30 something pounds flying around, and to pick up that much weight your going to need a system that can handle that current draw through every part of that system, and to not only pick it up you want to fly it around. I don't know about all those things because frankly there are so few that have a system like that it's not even funny.

The moral of the story is safety you have got to crawl before you can walk, and Know these systems well inside and out before you can think about a system like that. The Cinestar is a great Rig, but it's expensive, and a lot of work before your going to get usuable video out of it. But remember companies are not here to always tell you the truth there here to make money. So it's up to you to learn about how these system are developing and so forth.

Also here is what I will be purchasing if your smart you find this very helpful. Do your homework!

Cinestar 8
Cinestar 360 gimbal
DJI Wookong M
Kopterworx KW 8
APCprops 14 inch
May tech ESC unless I find something better and cheaper 60 amp for future endeavors
Build a wiring harness for your escs.

I'm going to left FS100 and fly with dual 4s 5700mah packs.. Hoping to get 10 minute flight... Keyword hoping.

This is just an example that imthought worked well for the money, and safety.

 

[kloner]

different radios have differnt controls. an ap guy would look for sliders or rotary knobs, however you prefer. JR radios have a bitchen little sliders on the back that are super slick, but i'd look for a futaba with something similar

 

[Brian Iannone]

I must say 3dheliguy, your posts have been quite enlightening! Thank you very much for the outstanding info!

So, you're going to build an octocopter with those exact components? I too was hoping to go with a CS8, the CS 360 Gimbal and WK-M. Would you mind if I PM'd you to ask for some additional details on the components you're using, because yours sounds exactly like how I'd like to set mine up.

Thanks again for the info!