Help with Building a CineStar 8 (& Copters in General)

[kloner]

all in german, but looks nice. costs more than mine. What i wouldn't try is them like yours but at hobbyking or hobbypartz. There clones of those and absolutely bite the big one. They make packs die

The general rulle of thumb is 200 cycles or 2 years. i write the month/year on my packs and periodicly go through them with the ir meter and write that on each pack. looks kinda weird, but i got too many to keep track of. flying in the desert like i do and not wanting to charge off my truck or boat leaves me with one option, lots of packs. Then after i'm done i go back, hang out inside the ac and charge so i can go back out and fly more.

right to left is 5000mah 4s, 4000mah 4s, 3000mah 4s, 4400mah 3s, 1800 mah 4s, 2200 mh 3s, 1800 mah 3s, 1550 mah 3s. And i'll fly em all 2-10 times on a 3day to 4 day weekend. Burn like 50,000 mah, log miles of flights

 

[Brian Iannone]

Some excellent information here. Thank you all very much.

I have a few more questions about the CineStar 8 setup.

1. Trying to decide between WooKong-M and Hoverfly. What do you recommend considering my level of experience (or rather, lack thereof)?

2. When you have an octocopter with an FPV system and camera gimbal and such, how many batteries are typically onboard the copter?

3. I don't plan on flying an octocopter with an EPIC, but I'm just curious... Does anyone know what motors have been used on a CineStar 8 that can lift an EPIC?

Thank you all very much again.

 

[3dheliguy]

The best advice I can give ya... Just higher a guy do to the flying portion of your filming... This is going to take a while to master, and business aren't interested in you producing results there interested in sales... Do your home work. I have in the hobby for a bit, and I know a lot about the electronics, power plants, thrust ratios, aerodynamics, and a whole lot more, along with flying top level 3d helicopters... All I can say is this is a whole new bag of tricks... Spend time trying to figure out exactly what you want to lift, and how do it effeciantly. A lot of people are jumping on the band wagon knowing nothing spending thousand, and the end lack the dedication to see it through. If you want results higher the guy that can get the results thats what I would do plain and simple.

Aside from that go ahead and buy a little f450 and a DJI Naza and have fun before jumping in to this. There is a lot of things that are going that you really need to know, and it's not going to happen just by reading a couple forums, and looking at some videos on YouTube, the guys your seeing doing demo reels, and smooth flight with these things are top notch Multirotor pilots, and they have spent 10s of hours building and perfecting there rigs, and all it takes is a little mistake to throw the whole system out of wack.

Moral of the story, your right in thinking this is interesting, but unless you got unlimited funds, and hours and hours to devote to tuning, simming, flying, checking then re checking your rigs then do yourself a favor and just higher someone to do the job you will be a lot happier, and you will actually get paid overall.

Your a young guy, youngot plenty of time to learn and progress. Patience Is key in this industry.

 

[3dheliguy]

The Cinestar 8 is a good for picking up fs100 and DSLR, but what one gentle just told you...your going to need big props and there is only one with that kind of prop size out of the box, but I'm going to save you a lot of money in telling you the rig that is actually going to be able to pick up your scarlet, and what they mainly us to pick up red epics given there setups are crazy expensive to pick reds up, and I don't recommend any of this to a newbie, but I got a feeling your already sold on the whole thing. I hate to see people go down this road.

Visit Droidworx.com, and look at the Multirotor called the SKY JIB 8, not the 6 they are not good in my opinion because they way almost the same as the SJ 8, for a lot less thrust and the same amount of weight.

Good Luck!

 

[3dheliguy]

Then look up this Company and they will help you a lot more than you can imagine... UAVrotorking.com... There going to help ya a lot more than a lot of people because your actually going to have a hands on look at how these things look work and so on. It's important you see these systems, and have local support that they offer.

 

[Lanzar]

Some excellent information here. Thank you all very much.

I have a few more questions about the CineStar 8 setup.

1. Trying to decide between WooKong-M and Hoverfly. What do you recommend considering my level of experience (or rather, lack thereof)?
We have mikrokopter and DJI RTF-s made and mikrokopter for smoothe flying but much harder to fly. DJI can wooble and is not that good in wind but much easyer to fly. Hooverfly is still a mistery but not for long. We will test it soon.


2. When you have an octocopter with an FPV system and camera gimbal and such, how many batteries are typically onboard the copter?
3 bateries, 2 for kopter and one for giball and camera like epic

3. I don't plan on flying an octocopter with an EPIC, but I'm just curious... Does anyone know what motors have been used on a CineStar 8 that can lift an EPIC?
Our kw8 or even better kw10 are more than enough for epic with prime lense. We flown with kw8 and red and canon c300 with heavy prime lense with no problem.
www.kopterworx.com

Thank you all very much again.

Ansewrs in blue

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Interesting thread. Seems most of you guys think like me. There are lots of people with money jumping on the bandwagon and dropping $10-20k on a "ready to fly" system. But IMO, it's actually a "ready to crash" system. And then after the crash, the guys who bought them don't know how to fix them, so it sits in the corner collecting dust. IMO, this cannot be done part-time. The skill required to do this doesn't allow it. So, the OP either needs to decide to dedicate a SIGNIFICANT amount of time learning, or just hire somebody to do it. In fact, just going ahead and hiring someone is a great idea just from the perspective of seeing what's involved, and what the realities are. If the guy shows up and there's a 20-30km/h wind and so he says he can't fly... I think that's a shocker to some people.

Try before you buy.

I realized this a while ago, which is why I decided that if I want to get into the business, there is going to be a bigger market for Aerial Photography as a service, than there will be selling hardware.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Oh, I have a question about this:

My thinking on chargers is that the important capabilities are 1) to be able to charge in the field (i.e. from a car battery)

I brought my charger to the field for the first time ever, normally I just charge at home. But I ran out of time and wanted to go flying, so I brought one charged pack and figured I'd charge another while setting up and flying the first pack. The charger is a Turnigy Accucel-8 150W, and I was trying to charge a 4S 5000 pack. But what I found was that when hooked up to the car battery the charger would keep quitting, saying input voltage error whenever the charger went over 5.0A. (I was trying to run the max of 7A). Seems to be simply a case that the battery voltage was dropping when the load was applied, which is normal but... how do you charge batteries in the field?

Do you have to leave the car running? I had it shut off. Or is it just that my charger sucks?

 

[jes1111]

As far as I'm concerned, anything with Turnigy written on it sucks - but that's just me

I leave the engine running on idle, with the charger/packs sitting on a box as far away from the car as the leads will allow.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I've had good luck with everything. But I've never spent the big bucks on anything to know the difference. Well, that's not true. I used to spend the big bucks on RC stuff 10-20 years ago. Futaba, Saito, Robbe, Associated, Tekin, etc. What you got then, was equivalent in feel/materials/quality to what is coming out of HK these days. But maybe the top end brands these days are better than they were these days and I just haven't experienced it yet? I dunno, just can't bring myself to spend the big bucks when just about everything I've gotten so far has worked fine and is SO cheap.

Anyway, engine running, obviously that makes a big difference. I didn't realize that. Seems wasteful to me to run the car for that. I'd get a generator, could use it in my trailer too, but the problem is most generators are designed for 110V, not 12V which is what we really need. Typically a 1000W generator only puts out about 10A DC. I've been thinking of making my own generator, not rocket science, simply buy a 2hp engine, and a 100A single wire GM alternator, boom 100A of DC current.

 

[jes1111]

Interesting thread. Seems most of you guys think like me. There are lots of people with money jumping on the bandwagon and dropping $10-20k on a "ready to fly" system. But IMO, it's actually a "ready to crash" system. And then after the crash, the guys who bought them don't know how to fix them, so it sits in the corner collecting dust. IMO, this cannot be done part-time. The skill required to do this doesn't allow it. So, the OP either needs to decide to dedicate a SIGNIFICANT amount of time learning, or just hire somebody to do it. In fact, just going ahead and hiring someone is a great idea just from the perspective of seeing what's involved, and what the realities are. If the guy shows up and there's a 20-30km/h wind and so he says he can't fly... I think that's a shocker to some people.

Try before you buy.

I realized this a while ago, which is why I decided that if I want to get into the business, there is going to be a bigger market for Aerial Photography as a service, than there will be selling hardware.

I, too, find this a very interesting phenomenon: the righteous "chorus" that can be heard when anybody suggests starting from day one with a $20K rig.

I used to ride motorcycles. When I first decided to get a bike and learn to ride I bought myself a Honda CB900. See the analogy? Had the internet existed in those days and had I declared that intention in a forum, I'm certain I would have got some suggestions that a smaller bike would be a better first machine, but not the clamour that greets every post like the first one in this thread! Sure, the CB900 was a big, powerful and therefore very dangerous machine. Did I crash it? No, never. In fact it was several years before I took my first tumble (on an even bigger bike), at which time it was nothing to do with my piloting skills.

Of course there are reasons to advise MR/AP "newcomers" to be cautious, responsible and to point out that walking should come before running. But many have, I'm sure, started out with a $20K rig, quickly learned how to fly it and are now happily, and safely, using that tool in their work or hobby. They've probably not even visited a forum like this one or sought advice elsewhere.

Just sayin'

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Yes, it's possible. But I certainly have not seen the results of that. Where are the videos? There's a fair number of systems like these being sold, and I'm seeing almost zero results. Yes, of course, I do see some things posted in various places, but those aren't newbies, they are experienced people who have been at this a long time.

My story, is that the first motorcycle I rode on the street was a Ninja 900. And it almost did kill me on the first day. I'd ridden off-road for years, and had being driving high-performance cars at autocross, rally and trackdays for some time. So in my youthful exuberance, took the Ninja up to 220km/h, at which point a crosswind nearly blew me into the ditch.

Sure, it is possible that somebody jump right in and be successful. But it's much more likely they will not.

 

[3dheliguy]

Owning a Genie is the Dream. I cant believe you guys that many packs, those things are still so damn expensive its ludicris.. and well im guessing you tryed a bunch of batterys and had only a few you really liked, with crazy price tags. So do yourself a favor and save the big Bucks... Go out by urself a nice little Honda 1000, and be done with it.

A genie is an invaluable tool.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

See, that's the problem. The Honda 1000 only puts out 100W on DC. So you're going to spend a fortune on an expensive 1000 AC Watt inverter generator, and then either rectify it to DC (nullifying the point of having an inverter), or suffer with the meagre 100W it outputs DC. I don't get why they build generators this way. I built an off-road camping trailer to tow behind my Land Rover and go boondock camping. All my stuff are DC loads, and I need to recharge the battery. What I need is a straight DC generator, but nobody makes one. Seems most things in most trailers operate on DC. When they are plugged into shore power, they are simply rectifying it back to DC.

Just like, I don't get UPS's for computers. You take 110V AC, rectify it to DC to charge the UPS battery. Then you have an inverter to turn it back into AC to feed the computer. In the computer, you rectify it back to DC. It doesn't make any sense. It's just because people are fixated on AC for some reason.

 

[3dheliguy]

Yep, I dont understand what country are you in that only allows DC. My genie puts a 1000 watts, and I can charge up to 25amps through my AC sockets.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Yep, I dont understand what country are you in that only allows DC. My genie puts a 1000 watts, and I can charge up to 25amps through my AC sockets.

I don't live in a country which only allows DC. (BTW, I'm in Canada).

My point is that you are using an AC/DC converter to power your DC battery charger. That's actually not too bad, though you are paying for an expensive inverter generator that you aren't benefiting from since you're rectifying it anyway.

We're just stuck in this paradym where you have two choices for field charging: Run your 200hp car engine to generate ~1hp of DC electrical power to charge your batteries. Or, buy an expensive AC generator, and an AC/DC rectifier to charge them. There's no logical option for a simple DC generator. You can buy a 6hp B&S engine for $130, and a 100A alternator for $100.

 

[Brian Iannone]

I cannot tell you all enough how thankful I am for every one of the replies and opinions here. This truly is an amazing community here and I thank you all very much for spending the time to answer my questions.

After considering my options, I've concluded to go with the CineStar 8 as my first octocopter even though this decision goes against the professional recommendations of nearly everyone here. I understand the risks involved and am aware that it's most likely I'll be spending a ton of time and money repairing things on the copter after crashing it. However, I have time on my side. (Quite a bit of time...) So I don't mind devoting hours to this project.

I'm not doing this because I want to offer AP services to others. Instead, it's more of a "hobby." Or rather... Both cinematography and photography are hobbies of mine. So this octocopter project will, in a sense, be an extension of that.

I'm sure my post count here will be increasing exponentially over the next three and a half months as I run into obstacles and ask for answers. So expect to see me here quite a bit from now on.

 

[Brian Iannone]

So, here is my plan. The Droidworx systems appear to be in the $20K range, which is out of my budget of $11.5K. While I do have a Scarlet and would like to be able to lift that with the octocopter, that's not necessary. I will buy a Blackmagic Cinema Camera and use that solely as my aerial camera.

I'd like to use WooKong-M. I'd also like to use CineStar's 3-Axis Camera Gimbal with their Radian Stabilizers. And I'd like to configure this in a one-transmitter setup. (Yes, I realize how difficult it will be for one person to control both the octocopter and the gimbal, but for now, a one-radio system is my only option.) I'm just full of bad ideas, aren't I?

So, what I'm not sure I quite understand is what type of motors should be used to lift a 3.2 to 3.7 kg payload (the Blackmagic Camera, an SDI to HDMI converter and an HDMI to SD converter).

Can I use KW10 motors on the CS8? And if so, what advantages do they offer over the KW8 other than greater lift capability? And if I do go with KW10s, what propellors and ESCs would you recommend I use?

And by the way, thank you Lanzar for those answers. I really do appreciate your expertise with this!

 

[Brian Iannone]

The Cinestar 8 is a good for picking up fs100 and DSLR, but what one gentle just told you...your going to need big props and there is only one with that kind of prop size out of the box, but I'm going to save you a lot of money in telling you the rig that is actually going to be able to pick up your scarlet, and what they mainly us to pick up red epics given there setups are crazy expensive to pick reds up, and I don't recommend any of this to a newbie, but I got a feeling your already sold on the whole thing. I hate to see people go down this road.

Visit Droidworx.com, and look at the Multirotor called the SKY JIB 8, not the 6 they are not good in my opinion because they way almost the same as the SJ 8, for a lot less thrust and the same amount of weight.

Good Luck!

Then look up this Company and they will help you a lot more than you can imagine... UAVrotorking.com... There going to help ya a lot more than a lot of people because your actually going to have a hands on look at how these things look work and so on. It's important you see these systems, and have local support that they offer.

Also, I have a hypothetical question unrelated to my question in the post above... It seems that the CineStar 8 with KW8 or KW10 motors is capable of lifting an EPIC or Scarlet. A CS8 setup like this seems to me like it's in the the $10K-$15K range. So then, why is a Droidworx SkyJib 8 that can lift an EPIC/Scarlet in the $20K-$25K range?

And, thank you immensely for the help 3dheliguy.

 

[jes1111]

So then, why is a Droidworx SkyJib 8 that can lift an EPIC/Scarlet in the $20K-$25K range?

Exactly! Crazy, isn't it? Not saying it isn't well made, capable, well supported, etc. - but I am (deeply) familiar with the materials and manufacturing costs of such things and... errr, just a minute: there's some men in dark suits at my door.