ChrisViperM
Active Member
...but say what you want....this is the hell of a good thread and a lot of good thinking.
Have we come too far too fast?
- Thread starter DucktileMedia
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ChrisViperM
Active Member
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DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
So today, my friend and I shot a commercial for a resort. The last shot of the day the DJI woochang accidentally flipped into manual mode and made the heli absolutely uncontrollable. It flipped upside down and crashed! This is a $12k heli and it held up surprisingly well. A few replaced arms and all props but it endured the most of it. SO, after this crash we brought out the back up heli...a Trex 700! I am so glad I had a chance to watch her fly because I lost all ambition to switch back.. Holy crap, i was fearful for my life just being around those blades! End of story. it definitely flew better in the winds and had no issues lifting the weight and was very stable when dropping down in altitude. But all that goes to mush when you see those blades twirling around like a meat cutter. So I am happy to say I am clearly sold on multis again. It was a good thing as I am impulsive and this saved me money watching him fly this thing. It had a heli command and was still so overly responsive and jumpy that I never knew what would happen. It becomes very obvious why people that flew SRH's say how dangerous they are. if that thing hit you you would be broken or dead. I had no idea how much rotational mass those blades carry even when slowing down. A standard prop on a multi would just stop and draw a little blood at worse. So i am back guys! Sorry to sway to the other side. I think I would have enjoyed the build a lot though since I am a mechanically minded guy but not worth it one bit.
Simple is no doubt the best of all worlds. I have noticed how many people on the set can share a bad experience about helis on other production shoots. it is to all of our benefits that we fly the safest thing possible. No added risks, no uncertainty. No gimmicks!
Simple is no doubt the best of all worlds. I have noticed how many people on the set can share a bad experience about helis on other production shoots. it is to all of our benefits that we fly the safest thing possible. No added risks, no uncertainty. No gimmicks!
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Someone in Cyp. was hit by a much smaller heli during a training flight. he almost died and needed twelve operations afterwards. Although there is much less chance of one crashing it carries serious consequences if it does. I remember in the early days a heli threw a blade and it went through a car door.
Tomstoy2
Member
I well remember when I first learned to fly srh my 450 threw the blades when a feathering shaft bolt failed. Went off 90 degrees from me and I was never so glad I was alone!
My Avant blades, I still think about that. Yuri's right, those things take time to spin down once you shut the engine off, a good 3 minutes or so. Carbon fiber, 713mm, those puppies will still do some serious damage to you.
However, the scars I have on my forearms now, thanks to my Hexa, was the most serious injury I have ever suffered. 6 hours in the emergency room on St. Patties day, ( no beer was involved, so non spilled ). Got to admit, I don't remember much after that so I guess I really didn't miss anything.
My Avant blades, I still think about that. Yuri's right, those things take time to spin down once you shut the engine off, a good 3 minutes or so. Carbon fiber, 713mm, those puppies will still do some serious damage to you.
However, the scars I have on my forearms now, thanks to my Hexa, was the most serious injury I have ever suffered. 6 hours in the emergency room on St. Patties day, ( no beer was involved, so non spilled ). Got to admit, I don't remember much after that so I guess I really didn't miss anything.
ChrisViperM
Active Member
Just in case you guys might not have noticed, but a few days ago I found this here on the forum:
http://www.multirotorforums.com/showthread.php?4765-Word-s-first-fully-shielded-propellers
Since I am very much concered about safety and could not bear if someone gets hurt, to me this shielded blades are a huge step in the right direction. I also like the simple approach of the design. I was just a bit surprised how little response to this thread was. Maybe it's a good idea that people like Iris aproach him and tell him their needs, I am sure he will listen. I don't know how practical this bird is for the pro's at this stage, but could be a good chance to influence the abilities of this copter to your personal needs.
...BUT even this Copter needs a stabilisation, and that's another story.
Chris
http://www.multirotorforums.com/showthread.php?4765-Word-s-first-fully-shielded-propellers
Since I am very much concered about safety and could not bear if someone gets hurt, to me this shielded blades are a huge step in the right direction. I also like the simple approach of the design. I was just a bit surprised how little response to this thread was. Maybe it's a good idea that people like Iris aproach him and tell him their needs, I am sure he will listen. I don't know how practical this bird is for the pro's at this stage, but could be a good chance to influence the abilities of this copter to your personal needs.
...BUT even this Copter needs a stabilisation, and that's another story.
Chris
I noticed it but thought it was stone age in design.
My F1 535 has had integral prop protection for at least a year so this is not a new idea. the gauze over the top and bottom is a waste of time as the damage is done by the blade tips. It is also very inefficient to have this weight and airflow restriction. This model that you mention also has a very poor airflow entry which will break the laminar flow into the blades. Last but not least this design did not take advantage of another feature which is to mount the motors inverted.
Even after a recent crash due to firmware problems I have never yet broke a prop. with around 250 flights
In terms of how this effects performance the F1-535 will fly for 12 to 15 mins. with a GoPro but on the same battery the DJI F550 will only fly for 5 mins.
The F550 is a heavy lump strapped together with a lot of heavy other stuff the F1535 is moulded in Carbon Kevlar and is hard to brake and easy to repair.
It was designed to do a specific inspection task which no other can yet do.
My F1 535 has had integral prop protection for at least a year so this is not a new idea. the gauze over the top and bottom is a waste of time as the damage is done by the blade tips. It is also very inefficient to have this weight and airflow restriction. This model that you mention also has a very poor airflow entry which will break the laminar flow into the blades. Last but not least this design did not take advantage of another feature which is to mount the motors inverted.
Even after a recent crash due to firmware problems I have never yet broke a prop. with around 250 flights
In terms of how this effects performance the F1-535 will fly for 12 to 15 mins. with a GoPro but on the same battery the DJI F550 will only fly for 5 mins.
The F550 is a heavy lump strapped together with a lot of heavy other stuff the F1535 is moulded in Carbon Kevlar and is hard to brake and easy to repair.
It was designed to do a specific inspection task which no other can yet do.
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R_Lefebvre
Arducopter Developer
What caused the WKM to just go into manual mode? And why was it uncontrollable? Is manual=acro=stick input gives you rate, with gyro stabilization only? Or is manual where stick input goes to motor throttle directly with ZERO stabilization?
But otherwise I agree about SRH's. They are hugely dangerous, and nobody should even THINK about flying one on a set with people around. I'm mostly interested in them for remote landscape photography, or industrial use. But not filming anywhere near people. You are exactly right! I tell you this:
In June, I was working on my heli program, I had spooled up the 600 (600, not 700 even) and was still on the ground, when it tipped over. The blades dug into the grass and it exploded as they always do. When I went to go get the wreckage, I saw two "strikes" in the grass from where the blades hit. The strikes were each about 24" long, and 3" deep in the middle! And this was in the dirt, a healthy lawn full of grass roots, etc. Think about it! Think about what that kind of energy would do to a person. It's insane!
I don't think helis are "death traps", but there's a time and place for everything. A heli should be used high up and far away.
Not that multis are safe either. But I think the nature of the injury is much different. They result in rapid slashing injuries. But I think the risk is bleeding out if you can't get aid fast, and at worse muscle and nerve damage. But it would be unlikely to kill you. A direct strike from a 600+ will kill you. You have to treat them with respect.
Denny, tell us more about that F1-535. I've seen that before, but didn't know if was for sale yet. It sounds like those shrouds are increasing the efficiency? I agree that MOST of the damage comes from the tips. Though I think you could still loose a finger or something in the unlikely even that somehow you stuck them into opening. Obviously "well don't do that", but I'm thinking more about in a crash, if a person stuck their hands up to protect themselves. Still, I'd rather loose a few fingers than slashing damage, but I certainly wouldn't fly that around my kids.
DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
This brings up a whole other topic of why does the DJI Wookong even have manual mode? It is completely useless and impossible to fly. We just put the radio down for a second to adjust the camera and it flipped down a click into manual. took off sorta ok, as it was windy we assumed it was just a weird gust. But the thing was absolutely uncontrollable and that WAS why. I have had the same experience on all of my DJI stuff including the NAZA. Atti mode is great but that manual mode just doesnt function like you would think. its the opposite on the Hoverfly. They fly amazingly well in manual and auto level gets jittery. I think they should have an option to disable it in the software. I think some guys might use manual for FPV but I dont see how they get it to fly right. Anyone else have this experience with DJI in manual?
R_Lefebvre
Arducopter Developer
Well, so is it "acro" mode, based only on rates from the gyros, or is it truly manual mode, and it just sends commands right to the motors?
We have an acro mode based on gyro input, it works pretty well. If you can fly an old flybarred helicopter, you can fly this. It's just like that. And of course, the pilot can choose which modes to put on which switch positions. 6 modes. I have a two position switch, and a 3 position switch mixed together. But 3 of the positions are all Stabilize. So basically, if the 2pos switch is up, it's in stabilize. If it's down, then the mode is selected by the 3pos switch. So I have Loiter, RTL, and Auto (missions). It's pretty easy, basically if I'm flying one of the GPS modes, and something goes wrong, stab the 2pos switch up, and I'm in stabilize. Period.
The WKM doesn't have this option? You can't assign modes, and just not have Manual if you don't want it?
I'm actually looking at making a custom Tx box that has 6 buttons on it for mode. Push the button for the mode you want, and the button lights up, and the Tx transmits the signal for that mode. Dead-nuts simple. I don't like having all these switches, or 6 position knobs for mode selection. Most of the pieces to put this all together are already available. It's just a case of doing it. Currently I use a Futaba 9CAP Tx, in a tray so I can pinch the sticks. And then I have a FrSky telemetry display ziptied to is, and an FrSky 2.4GHz module in the back with the antenna coming out in the wrong place, and eventually will have a Arducopter telemetry display bolted on... it's a mess and I hate it. I want to make something integrated. A large box (sort of like a Multiplex Tx) with the right switches in the right places, all integrated intelligently.
We have an acro mode based on gyro input, it works pretty well. If you can fly an old flybarred helicopter, you can fly this. It's just like that. And of course, the pilot can choose which modes to put on which switch positions. 6 modes. I have a two position switch, and a 3 position switch mixed together. But 3 of the positions are all Stabilize. So basically, if the 2pos switch is up, it's in stabilize. If it's down, then the mode is selected by the 3pos switch. So I have Loiter, RTL, and Auto (missions). It's pretty easy, basically if I'm flying one of the GPS modes, and something goes wrong, stab the 2pos switch up, and I'm in stabilize. Period.
The WKM doesn't have this option? You can't assign modes, and just not have Manual if you don't want it?
I'm actually looking at making a custom Tx box that has 6 buttons on it for mode. Push the button for the mode you want, and the button lights up, and the Tx transmits the signal for that mode. Dead-nuts simple. I don't like having all these switches, or 6 position knobs for mode selection. Most of the pieces to put this all together are already available. It's just a case of doing it. Currently I use a Futaba 9CAP Tx, in a tray so I can pinch the sticks. And then I have a FrSky telemetry display ziptied to is, and an FrSky 2.4GHz module in the back with the antenna coming out in the wrong place, and eventually will have a Arducopter telemetry display bolted on... it's a mess and I hate it. I want to make something integrated. A large box (sort of like a Multiplex Tx) with the right switches in the right places, all integrated intelligently.
DucktileMedia
Drone Enthusiast
Trust me we are both more than capable of flying manually on anything that will fly right. And I dont know the answer to how DJI's manual mode works. I am pretty sure it is completely manual with no assistance of any kind. But not sure. All I know is it has always flown like crap and is in fact dangerous. I think Hoverfly does it a little different and is night and day in comparison. There really isn't anything I have ever flown that is as smooth as the Hoverfly Pro in manual. they are really getting the auto level down too but its still jumpy in winds. If that gets figured out and they come out with a box, and the gps gets nailed they are going to make a huge come back. But those are all easier said than done.
Manual Mode
Leaving aside the notion that manual is "completely useless" (on a WKM multi if you want to fly loops you can't do it without manual mode) and the status LEDs, this is why professionals use a checklist prior to take off - either a written checklist, or a "cockpit" driven one whereby the controls in front of you are systematically swept through to verify their condition which is something that some aeroplane pilots favour. To aid this approach, my TX is configured such that immediately before take off every single switch should be the up/forward position. This means that my final pre take off check is just to ensure every switch is in the up/forward position. It takes literally 2 seconds.
And yes, you can disable manual if you like. Just program your transmitter not to move the mode selector in to the "Manual" region.
Leaving aside the notion that manual is "completely useless" (on a WKM multi if you want to fly loops you can't do it without manual mode) and the status LEDs, this is why professionals use a checklist prior to take off - either a written checklist, or a "cockpit" driven one whereby the controls in front of you are systematically swept through to verify their condition which is something that some aeroplane pilots favour. To aid this approach, my TX is configured such that immediately before take off every single switch should be the up/forward position. This means that my final pre take off check is just to ensure every switch is in the up/forward position. It takes literally 2 seconds.
And yes, you can disable manual if you like. Just program your transmitter not to move the mode selector in to the "Manual" region.
Regarding http://www.multirotorforums.com/showthread.php?4765-Word-s-first-fully-shielded-propellers and Denny's comments:
This might not be the thread to discuss this, but I would like to address your comments briefly: Each string within the mesh (or "gauze" as you call it) on our SFC model is round and .025" thick. While we would prefer each one of those tiny strings were a vertical airfoil shape with the lowest Reynold's numbers possible, producing that shape in a micro-scale (at this point) is cost-prohibitive. I do not disagree with the disruption in the airflow whatsoever and actually lost a lot of sleep about it. However, the overall reduction in flight time turned out to be a mere two minutes less compared to running the same machine without the screens. I think that makes it all worth it, IMHO. By the way, you can lob tennis balls with these if you put these rings on a stick and we'll likely use that in future marketing.
Your statement that the damage being done only by the blade tips is hard to agree with, however. Ever stuck your hand into a spinning prop from the top or bottom during a malfunction or accidental throttle-up? The scars on my own hand are not from the propeller tips, and the pain was possibly the worst I've ever felt in my hand as the blades not only sliced but beat the crap out of all the nerves. Took about 5 minutes before I could stand up without being dizzy. That, and others' gruesome pics of accidents are our primary inspiration.
Ha ha, thanks. Conversely, I like your design on your F1 535, looks like it took a lot of work. Very minimalistic to save weight and it looks quite strong. Anyway, I hope this clears up a few things about the SFC design. I appreciate everyone's contributions and have enjoyed reading this thread.
Erik
This might not be the thread to discuss this, but I would like to address your comments briefly: Each string within the mesh (or "gauze" as you call it) on our SFC model is round and .025" thick. While we would prefer each one of those tiny strings were a vertical airfoil shape with the lowest Reynold's numbers possible, producing that shape in a micro-scale (at this point) is cost-prohibitive. I do not disagree with the disruption in the airflow whatsoever and actually lost a lot of sleep about it. However, the overall reduction in flight time turned out to be a mere two minutes less compared to running the same machine without the screens. I think that makes it all worth it, IMHO. By the way, you can lob tennis balls with these if you put these rings on a stick and we'll likely use that in future marketing.
Your statement that the damage being done only by the blade tips is hard to agree with, however. Ever stuck your hand into a spinning prop from the top or bottom during a malfunction or accidental throttle-up? The scars on my own hand are not from the propeller tips, and the pain was possibly the worst I've ever felt in my hand as the blades not only sliced but beat the crap out of all the nerves. Took about 5 minutes before I could stand up without being dizzy. That, and others' gruesome pics of accidents are our primary inspiration.
Ha ha, thanks. Conversely, I like your design on your F1 535, looks like it took a lot of work. Very minimalistic to save weight and it looks quite strong. Anyway, I hope this clears up a few things about the SFC design. I appreciate everyone's contributions and have enjoyed reading this thread.
Erik
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R_Lefebvre
Arducopter Developer
I think you should give Arducopter a shot. It's really become pretty solid the past month or so. I wonder if there's somebody around you, you could go for a "test drive"? It's so good I'm going to let my 6 year old give it a fly (with all appropriate safety precautions, etc. etc.)
R_Lefebvre
Arducopter Developer
IrisAerial, if you're interested, you could check out the Bay Area UAV Fliers list and go to a fly-in or ask somebody for a demo.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/bay-area-uav-fliers
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/bay-area-uav-fliers
I have always been against the development of heavy lift contraptions (outside of controlled environment operations) due to the danger aspect. As cameras such as the GoPro continue to improve the time will surely come when a sub 3 kilo machine will be able to deliver the image quality that will suffice to deliver even the most stringent cinematic requirements. In a constant effort to develop a machine that will bring about this possibility the F1 was created. It encompasses an overall package that utilizes high efficiency in all areas such as the optimisation of motor power output curve (modified by ESC.) against optimized prop. power absorbtion curve. Bringing together a hitherto unseen level of stability, noise levels and lift efficiency.
Due to this years bad weather I did have the time to produce ten machines that have entered service in a in harms way environment.
Only one failure on a DJI 5.12 upgrade No Failures on DIYDRONES AMP-2.
I doubt that I will ever find the time to produce these as a hobbyist offering as the carbon/kevlar frame is very labor intensive and expensive. I am however always open to share some of the technology to enthusiasts with a similar interest. Despite free falling from about 120 feet onto a parking lot the F1 sustained only minimal damage (easily repaired carbon fractures) not even a broken prop. Very flexible in some areas whilst being strong in other places.
If one is to look at the safety record of low level filming ops. with full size helicopters then the risks of flying SR models is significantly reduced by comparison. There have been about twenty fatalities over the last 30 years that I know about. Seeing first hand the grief suffered by those involved was what prompted me to start this work.
I have always made my own models however this year I decided to see how the other half live, so to speak and I purchased an F550 with a AV130 to see where these things are by comparison. So far I think there is quite some work to do before this will ever work properly. The S800 on the other hand was working very well right up to 5.12 upgrade. Good battery efficiency as well.
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Aviator
Member
Hi Robert the WKM manual mode works the same as the APM2 in Acro mode, so it just uses the gyros I occasionally fly the WKM manual mode on my Octo just for a quick burn around
and have it on a separate switch in case things go wrong with the stabilisation or throttle of the WKM I can switch into manual mode and bring it back and land.. Although 90% of my manual mode flying is done on my homebuilt Tricopter which you may be familiar with? I can really abuse that machine without too much worry of it crashing it`s a case of £300 or £4000 to abuse... I haven`t looped or rolled the octo yet, but am pretty sure that it will do it, need more balls or more money to try Dean
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R_Lefebvre
Arducopter Developer
Hi Robert the WKM manual mode works the same as the APM2 in Acro mode, so it just uses the gyros I occasionally fly the WKM manual mode on my Octo just for a quick burn around
Dean
Dean, yeah, I think I know who this is. Hey, have you flown your Tri with my yaw fix yet? All the tri guys are raving about it!
Thanks for the info on WKM manual mode. I must guess then that Igor's just wasn't tuned properly?
I'm working on a full manual acro mode for flybarred helis. Basically, it will bypass all the stabilization, and simply do the CCPM mixing and then out to the servos.
Aviator
Member
No I made a foolish mistake whilst testing the APM2.. I put it down on a carbon plate with it plugged it whilst I went to pick something else up, without thinking? so it got fried.. 3DR should have it now? just waiting for the repair bill, it still turns on but no serial connection. Hope to hear soon how much it will cost and how long it will take? has been two weeks now?Dean, yeah, I think I know who this is. Hey, have you flown your Tri with my yaw fix yet? All the tri guys are raving about it!
Thanks for the info on WKM manual mode. I must guess then that Igor's just wasn't tuned properly?
I'm working on a full manual acro mode for flybarred helis. Basically, it will bypass all the stabilization, and simply do the CCPM mixing and then out to the servos.
I actually preferred the yaw in 2.6d? although it might not have been to everyones taste? I actually stuck with the Delta version rather than the official release
May be going for a short drive tomorrow to help a traditional heli flyer try and tune in the PID`s to get better results? although apparently he has managed to get them fairly good so far?