Tarot 680pro & Naza M v2: will it work?

[Motopreserve]

First: Corey, am I being oppressive?

Simon. The SimonK firmware has some serious sync issues with "pancake" motors. Some have good results, some don't. No one, including SimonK (last I checked) has any idea why, or can provide concussive info - other than video of it not working. The way to test is to strap MR to table and with prop on 1 arm - throttle up and down very quickly. You'll hear the problem of it exists. Basically the SimonK can't tell the ESC to react quick enough - I believe due to higher weight, therefore more mass to have to spin/switch at high speeds.

BTW: the system can't operate with an ESC any faster than 400. The 600 is for now a marketing ploy, until such time someone figures out a way to utilize faster rates. There is some math that explains the whole thing somewhere on this forum.

You should also try calibrating your ESCs from the throttle channel of the RX - to make sure they are all in sync with your end points. I've read conflicting reports about this too - but with the issue you had, can't hurt.

I dont believe that that the Naza can't handle the 680. I have run it on mine without issue - although I like the flying characteristics of the superx better. There are people running them on larger Hex machines (960?) without issue. It could be a gain issue - but I'm confident that of it is, it's not strictly a craft the Naza can't be tuned to handle.

Good luck and please keep us updated.

 

[Motopreserve]

In looking at the video again (tough to see at that distance) it appears that it could be an ESC/motor issue causing the opposite side to overcompensate - causing the horrible wobble?

im assuming you've checked all your connections etc? It looks to be intern it any at first - and then gives up the ghost for the flip.

 

[simondorr]

Hi Motopreserve,

Many thanks for your input I certainly didn't know about the pancake motor issue but are 750kv motors pancake? I always assumed that the pancake motors are the larger flatter ones typically used for gimbals? I realise the 600khz thing is a bit of a marketing ploy since the Naza operates at 400khz therefore the ESC is fast enough for the Naza and is being under-utilised. According to the info sheet supplied these ESCs cannot be programmed (T-Motor 35A SimonK) though I will try strapping the MR to a table and throttle one motor with prop up and down to see what happens. I have seen lots of people on here having great success with the Naza on larger aircraft and remain confident about its ability just very frustrating that I don't seem to be able to cure this problem at the moment. Also I have been trying to work out what the alarm was, you can just here it in the video. It can't be my TX as I have no telemetry unit fitted to the MR at the moment. Does the Naza emit an alarm if the aircraft tips over passed a certain point say 60 degrees? I'll let you know how I get on. Many thanks.

 

[simondorr]

Over compensation is what I think too and had hoped that the adjusted gains from the previous day would work. They did make a difference on the previous flight (not shown), I had a very stable 6 min flight on a 3S. All connections good and certainly seemed to climb and fly out and back ok apart from when she flared to hold position then went into that horrible wobble with each roll getting more pronounced each time she tried to compensate until giving up the ghost as you say.

 

[coreyperez]

I'm curious, that "alarm" you heard, I remember hearing a weird noise on another video when another Simon k esc went out of sync, it was a high freq/tone, like what yours did, but i don't have the link on my phone. The NAZA can fly with 5 motors, but i couldn't tell with the video if that happened to yours.

Corey

 

[Motopreserve]

Unfortunately the "pancake" description is rather vague. It seems to encompass any motor that is either large diameter and/or high pole count. The larger diameter style could be anything over the 28xx range or 14 pole. That is just based on my exhaustive research - none of which provided any conclusive, smoking gun.

It it surprises me that the ESCs can't be programmed, because that would mean they somehow shut them down (closed source) after programming them with simonk (open source) to begin with. It might be worth a try to see if they react. Are you familiar with the procedure?

I didn't hear anything on the video. I'll check again. Ipad not great for audio.

EDIT: I hear the beep - and I don't think that's sync - it's regular interval. Not sure about naza and angle limit alarms.

 

[soler]

The naza should be fine for this, I have used them on larger frames and also the tarot 650.

One thing to realise is that your gains for a 3S will be different to a 4S. Set up a channel on your TX to remotely control the gains.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[coreyperez]

I've never heard an audible alarm from a NAZA, it will shut the motors down when a certain limit is exceeded. The beeps, I was curious if it was due to the NAZA sending signals in an attempt to self correct.

Corey

 

[simondorr]

Morning guys.

The alarm sounds like the low voltage alarm that I fitted to the battery, you see it hanging down in the link below and hear it too. But the battery was fully charged and still reading 78% when I checked it after the crash, it reads 82% at the moment. The battery is usually used for powering the gimbal on the Cinestar so hasn't had any hard use and has only completed 20 cycles. I think something is setting it into a loop whereby she tries to correct and overcompensates to the point that she goes beyond the 60 degree angle limit and the Naza then shuts down the power to all motors, miraculously not one prop was damaged in that crash.

So as it looks as if my motors could be described as 'pancake' this may have something to do with it. I've never tried nor had the need to program ESCs before so am not familiar with the process. I have T-Motor 40A 400KHz on my Cinestar and have just run them in the state they arrived in, not aware of my suppliers who built the Cinestar having to program them either.

I have switched between 3S and 4S on my quad without changing the gains and have not experienced this sort of problem, even kept the 1038 props on instead of switching to the 8045s and no problem. Looking at the way the quad handles when on the 4S I can see that some 'tuning down' may smooth out some of the twitchiness but never caused overcompensation like this.

I have looked at dedicating the knob on my DX18 to adjust the gains in flight but would prefer to use an iPad and BTU for this. Am I right in assuming that if you use a knob or slider it will adjust all the gains at the same time? Also I guess that once you've found the right balance if adjusting the Gains in flight you need to land and disable that function from your TX to avoid the possibility of inadvertently adjusting it during future flights.

Another thing that puzzled me was that on powering up not all the ESCs seem to be emitting a tune, in fact it sounds as though it is only one (maybe two at the most) and is very quiet. I am used to them all making a noise (quite loud too) and all the motors twitching slightly; this just isn't happening. Yet in spite of all this she will take off and fly relatively well, here is the link to the previous flight with a 3S: http://youtu.be/tmGHAgKXjbw the first alarm is my 5 minute counter on the TX the second alarm is from a low voltage alarm fitted to the battery. I used this as I have no telemetry unit yet and have elected not to fit the iOSD mini until I fit the gimbal, camera and transmitter for the video feed. I won't do that until I know the 680 is a stable platform as I don't want to risk damaging other equipment such as a gimbal and camera which together are worth approx £600.

Thanks for all your help so far.

P.S. I think the immediate thing to do is strip out all the motors and ESCs and bench test them one by one to see how they perform.

 

[coreyperez]

I don't think it would impact the flight issue, but in the NAZA, there is a field to indicate if it is being powered by a 3s or 4s.

As far as calibrating the ESCs, I believe most require then to be wired together (via splitter), you then power the FC up with the TX at full throttle, they will all beep a certain way to indicate programming and settings are being accomplished, you then put it at minimum throttle, another sequence of beeps, they are then all calibrated.

This is the point I'm at, I failed to do this during the build and now I have to year all apart to get the ESC wires.

Corey

 

[Motopreserve]

Corey's got it right. You can do this one at a time if you don't have the harness to couple them all together.

Unhook all ESC servo leads from naza. Plug the servo into throttle channel, power up Tx, put throttle all the way up (full throttle), power on MR, wait for beeps, throttle all the way down, wait for beeps, POWER DOWN - start again with next ESC.

If you are going to tear down the MR to test, I would suggest using your own squid for power on the rebuild. There was a report about the internal PCB causing issues with some flight controllers because if various length runs fkr the copper traces.

also, you could probably test for the simonk issue before tearing down completely. Just leave a single prop on and strap it down. You'll hear the squeal if the sync is lost.

 

[simondorr]

Yeah going to give it a go one by one as I don't have a harness. I have a separate power distribution board as the version of the 680 I bought does not have the integrated one so should be no issues there (http://www.flyingtech.co.uk/cables-connectors/300-amp-octocopter-power-distribution-board); its rated to 300 amps. I'll then bench test each motor ESC set up with a prop fitted one by one as well to see what I can find.

It's a pity that little or no support is offered by many of the manufacturers who often rely on forums on their own websites for customer support. The people that flight test me each year describe them as doing their R&D through blogs and forums such as these. Ok for the enthusiast but little consolation for a commercial operator like me.

Thanks guys I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[Motopreserve]

Don't get me started with this industry's customer support!!!' . Pitiful at best, and worse yet, basically accepted by the consumer, so no incentive for most to change any time soon.

When you rebuild, I would suggest getting familiar with the remote tuning knob (or get the Bluetooth and app). The knob can be set for individual or multiple parameters. So you can tune the way you like/need. The app is obviously much easier. Also, it was mentioned earlier: I personally definitely tune for the battery I'll be using. If I just want to test the MR without all the valuables , the power/thrust is adjusted by swapping props and gains can later be changed for more weight etc. but at least you'd have a baseline for the electronics. In my mind, that leaves the MR as close to the way it will eventually fly - just swapping the props. And gains are always tweaked for different conditions anyway - so I consider that a given.

Let us us know how the tests go.

 

[Info@key-photos.co.uk]

Hi Simon,

Wow you really brought this thread back to life. I'm afraid I can't offer anything that hasn't already been put forward other than question your flight times against battery life but a dying battery in my experience (from 600 feet) featured an even yet accelerating plunge ending just like a landing but at 30mph

My 680 usually has a flight time of around 8 just minutes with a 4S 6200 battery and Aeroxcraft gimbal and in my case it's the take offs that scare me witless with some terrifying swoops port and starboard, only once in a while is the take off normal and I've had worse ones than the video shows. Even in manual the auto take gets involved. Once airborne the flights are sweet - none of the death dives you experience. The airframe is trimmed with good c of g

I have tarot 4006 620kv motors fitted, coupled to the platinum pro 30amp escs fixed under the motors. 12" props. Looking for smooth flight (for video) my gains are low just now 125 125 100 125 and 125 on the atti pitch and roll
The skids have snapped very easily on the 680 and the T810 I wrote suggesting they make them thicker but just got a weird reply rather than replacements. I effected a repair and reinforcement by sliding aluminium tube inside buttered with epoxy glue.

Sorry no suggestions


Kenn

 

[simondorr]

Hi Guys,

All ESCs have been calibrated, repairs effected with parts that I have (shorter hex spacers etc should arrive in the next couple of days), will probably take a leaf out of Kenn's book and buy some wooden dowels rather than aluminium to feed into and join my broken skids together as I want to preserve my rapidly dwindling stock of 10mm CF tubes. Naza realigned and placed on some vibration dampening foam. All power leads re-routed to keep them as far away from the Naza as possible. The whole rig was strapped to a workbench and tested to the max with no alarms going off, prior to this I even flipped her over whilst motors running (without props fitted!) to see if I could trigger a hitherto unknown Naza safety cutoff but to no avail. No unnerving vibrations, no strange jerky motors, nothing strange at all.

During today's frenetic activity of repairing I have come to the conclusion that my COG is a little high and it is this that is causing the problem. The only thing of any real weight that is attached below the level of the Naza is the battery. The motors, RX, GPS Puck, Power Distribution Board and PMU are either level with or above the Naza so I decided to test my theory and behold... she is slightly top heavy. The gimbal, camera, second flight battery and transmitter for the video feed will all be mounted below the Naza thus lowering the COG but I will only fit these once I'm happy that she is going to be stable.

Once I had to remove most of the gimbal and the 5D from my Cinestar because of a faulty servo whilst on location. We Jerry rigged a 2 axis brushless gimbal and a GoPro to what was left. This raised the COG and until I adjusted the settings (N.B. not the gains) she was slightly unstable in a way not too disimilar to the 680 albeit not as pronounced.

Next step...another test flight.

 

[coreyperez]

1st:
Kenn, I'm running the exact same equipment that you are, and I have a question about the ESC programming. Did you use the standard multiple servo lead off the throttle to program all the ESCs at the same time, or did you by chance need to use the programming card in conjunction with the setting (high/low) calibration for the ESC. I have a couple different cards to do ESC programming, but didn't look into if that was required. Figured I'd ask since you chimed in. THANKS!

2nd:
Simon, GOOD THINKING! I didn't even take into consideration the issue of being top heavy, etc. I read (long ago) and had it in my mind that the Naza liked to be slightly top heavy, hence many people keeping batteries up there, but since you mentioned it, I now recall nearly every one of them developing issues and re-locating the batteries low/on the lower legs to lower the COG. The other thing I was going to mention is that many have pointed out that the potential exists that putting the centerline of the Naza (or other FC) would make sense to put in the centerline of thrust of the props, thus everything is on a equal plane. But, it sounds like you identified a potential issue with your Cinestar and hopefully this translates to a solution on you Tarot. I myself have never liked the idea of a high CG, always believed a "slung weight" to be better/more beneficial, just in the simple notion that it would be a auto-stabilization trait. (I fly full size UH60 Helicopters and we use this form of training for when we are doing "sling loads" carrying around many thousands of pounds under our aircraft). So, good thinking in that respect. I'm eagerly looking forward to the development of this! I may put aside some of my plans this weekend and disassemble my Tarot and program my ESCs (pending Kenn's reply) and see about getting it in the air.

Now to also finish my Naze32 Honey Badger.... Where was I at with THAT project....

Corey

Current projects unfinished:
Naze 32 & Honey Badger
Tarot 680Pro and Naza
F550 w/Whitspy (Ditching the whitspy and will probably go Naza again or my other NAZE board, depending on how the Honey Badger works out)
X8 flying wing
Bixler2
RVJet (Ruby FC, Full UHF complement, most in transient, waiting for RVJet to ship)
Reprogramming nearly ALL my RCs for a fleet of new Futaba compatible RXs from Hobby King and ditching my 9XR completely
Repairing my Apprentice S 15e (post crash, let a friend fly it)

 

[Motopreserve]

Corey,

do you have the hobby wing platinum pro ESCs? Of so, they need their own program card - or I think you can do it with the annoying series of stick movements.

simon,

good to see you may have honed in on the issue. I hope that's it.

 

[coreyperez]

Scott, I've got 3 different programming card for the hobbywing ESCs. I wasn't sure what method I needed to use and hoped it was going to be the simple throttle up/down = done scenarios. Sounds like its more in depth.

Yippie, more homework!


I SHOULD be studying for my annual APART flight eval plus we have a large "agency" coming down to evaluate us. Since I am the newest "Pilot in Command" I'm up for evaluation. fun.... (or not). Between this thread and having just purchasing the RVJet and getting all new UHF & Long range video links. Not enough time in the day...

Corey

 

[Info@key-photos.co.uk]

Yes standard multiple servo lead off the throttle to program escs I used a v simple circuit board from Vulcan uav. Actually didn't program simply calibrated. Plugged in connected throttle, up down done. Motors all fire up at the same time and with the exception of this HATEFUL auto take off function. The aircraft flies perfectly once in the air. Does everyone else's auto take off work perfectly??

After Simons problems I did look again at c of g not thinking that top bottom was as important as port/stb for'd/aft. The mc is mount high up but at the moment perplexed as how to get it lower without partial rebuild . . .

 

[coreyperez]

Its funny you should ask about the auto takeoff. Everybody that I've asked thinks I'm nuts, but I know, KNOW that I've made a configuration change that gave me variable throttle. Complete control from 0-100% But then it seems to be gone, I don't remember if I've made a change or if it just is acting weird. Granted, the only REAL noteworthy change (that it could have been) was when I removed the PMU from my Disco Pro before putting the IOSD back on.

I'm not nuts, I KNOW it did it before...

Corey