Representation for Commercial sUAS
- Thread starter filmfly
- Start date
2 parties had to sign off. One did some research and gave me the A-OK, the other simply said 'omg no FAA say's its illegal'... I'm not getting paid to do lawyer's job so it's frustrating.
Do you mind shooting me a PM about what you had to go through to get the FAA special A-OK...
Thanks, i already had that. I was more curious what happens after and how you went about it. Only 6 businesses received it... which is insane...
Av8Chuck
Member
Its great seeing the activity build on this thread.
I really feel for you Ronan, I know you've read the Motherboard article and although there's parts of it I don't agree with I think the general implication that the FAA is trying to "confuse" the issue is valid and unfortunately your caught up in that old saying "Confused people don't do anything."
One suggestion that I have is that there are always two parts of any transaction, the price, and the terms & conditions. Its a lawyers job to be risk avers and advice their clients to avoid any risk, so if you can demonstrate your ability to get insurance, try upping the comprehensive to as high as you can go, $7M+, then remove the risk that the FAA will shut you down by changing the terms so that if the FAA stops your production they only have to pay for what's been flown thereby mitigating some of the risk. You might have to prioritize what and how you were going to shoot this facility so that if you get shut down you can at least complete the video with what you have.
What Ronan is going through really points out the need for this sort of organization, although I'm sure at first this won't be a part of this new organization but a legal defense fund that housed the kinds of documents attorney could use to make these sorts of decisions and arguments for allowing this sort of work would be invaluable.
Curious are their any attorneys browsing through all of this?
Also, regarding your comment about only six businesses receiving COA's, actually more than 300 have received them. In fact out of all the COA's that have been applied for only five have not been approved. Again this might be a great role for this new organization to play, assisting small sUAS companies get COA's for specific projects. We could call it Legal ZOOOOOOM for Drones...
OK, so I'm not the comedian on this thread, what can I say.
I really feel for you Ronan, I know you've read the Motherboard article and although there's parts of it I don't agree with I think the general implication that the FAA is trying to "confuse" the issue is valid and unfortunately your caught up in that old saying "Confused people don't do anything."
One suggestion that I have is that there are always two parts of any transaction, the price, and the terms & conditions. Its a lawyers job to be risk avers and advice their clients to avoid any risk, so if you can demonstrate your ability to get insurance, try upping the comprehensive to as high as you can go, $7M+, then remove the risk that the FAA will shut you down by changing the terms so that if the FAA stops your production they only have to pay for what's been flown thereby mitigating some of the risk. You might have to prioritize what and how you were going to shoot this facility so that if you get shut down you can at least complete the video with what you have.
What Ronan is going through really points out the need for this sort of organization, although I'm sure at first this won't be a part of this new organization but a legal defense fund that housed the kinds of documents attorney could use to make these sorts of decisions and arguments for allowing this sort of work would be invaluable.
Curious are their any attorneys browsing through all of this?
Also, regarding your comment about only six businesses receiving COA's, actually more than 300 have received them. In fact out of all the COA's that have been applied for only five have not been approved. Again this might be a great role for this new organization to play, assisting small sUAS companies get COA's for specific projects. We could call it Legal ZOOOOOOM for Drones...
OK, so I'm not the comedian on this thread, what can I say.
Great info, I'll take a look.
what the lawyers are worried is to get sued by the FAA and waste time/money in a long costly legal fight. They want to hire me to save money, not spend extra.
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kloner
Aerial DP
just out of cutriosity, i looked up a local nuclear power plant and in the vfr sectional chart it indeed is airspace like any other, not owned by any facility but it is faa US airspace with SPECIAL AIRTRAFFIC RULES /AIRPORT PATTERNS(FAR 93)
if your ever curious whats going on above you look it up at http://vfrmap.com and there is a great legend to figure out what you see here.... http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/VFR_Chart_Symbols.pdf
if your ever curious whats going on above you look it up at http://vfrmap.com and there is a great legend to figure out what you see here.... http://flighttraining.aopa.org/pdfs/VFR_Chart_Symbols.pdf
Av8Chuck
Member
Just needs someone to spearhead it and a band of brothers (and sisters!) to push things along! I know I am a hobbyist and not a professional but didn't we all start as hobbyists? So in essence, we're just future pros...So how to organize?
Probably the place to start is everyone answer [and ask additional questions that help define what we want to accomplish] a few questions:
1. What should this organization do? Not what should the rules be but what does it stand for?
2. What would it take for you to join?
3. If you join, would you be interested in helping? If so, how?
4. Once it gets going how can we grow it?
5. What does the sight have to be in order to get you to evangelize for it to grow its membership?
6. Who is the target audience? Or, who are its members? Or who does it represent?
That's not too many questions is it? I'll answer it after everyones had a chance to add or subtract questions but lets not turn this into a debate about the questions. This is intended to be an exercise that would produce issues that a mission statement would address.
I'm just telling you what i was told. The airspace is closed, only they can fly there. Flights in and out need to be registered like any normal flights. Probably because it's experimental and their doing construction, but nothing flies above it, at any altitude.
I was also told, specifically, the FAA has no say in what happens in that airspace, but out of courtesy they checked with them for drone flights/regulations and were told it's an illegal business type. Which made the company's lawyers contact the construction director and then contact me...
I have contacted them, told them what the court judge said, sent plenty of information, next i'm boosting my insurance, i'll show them that + let them know if someone get's sued, it would be me, not them (since i own my LLC business).
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Av8Chuck
Member
The AMA provides representation for Hobbyist, AOPA represents aircraft owners/renters/pilots, There are several other startup advocacy groups like the DPA and Small UAS Coalition, but the former has not found much traction and seems to be at odds with hobbyist, SUASC is simply a lobbying organization representing the interest if Amazon, GoogleX, Airsoft and a few other large companies, so I think our organization should represent anyone/everyone who wants to own and operate a "Small" sUAS business. It should represent our right to be do this commercially and to make sure that it doesn't end up costing $45K to certify a $3K drone.
Yes this will take money for attorney's, a legal defense fund, incorporation, public relations etc., however, I think there's more leverage with a higher membership that doesn't pay dues than there is with a small membership that does. That's not to say that I don't think there should be some kind of membership fee its just that starting up how does that organization "earn" that fee, it has no credibility. So over time a membership fee might be added but at that point we will hopefully have a significant number of members which will perceive a value in the service the organization has grown and demonstrated it can manage, which would also have sponsorship value for vendors, and other organizations might support our efforts at a corporate or philanthropic level. Probably more importantly, as cliche as this sounds but a large subscriber base also represents votes.
I'd like to see our organization solidly positioned between the AMA and AOPA, representing the rights of small business that would enable a junior high school student who joins the AMA and falls in love with flight be able to transition to to this new organization, then if they desire to do this for a living as a small business and then continue on to AOPA as there interest grows to fly bigger planes or missions as either a private or commercial pilot.
I think that all of these organizations have an important role, a responsibility to become good stewards of aviation with each providing mentorship at the level they represent. Currently that path, from dreamer to pilot is disjointed at best and broken at worst. I don't know if its the FAA's fault with over regulation, the economy, or people just don't care about flying anymore, whatever the cause it needs to be fixed. Now we can't fix it all but as part of its charter it should try to work in that direction to provide the opportunity to anyone who wants to fly at any level has the opportunity to be successful.
One thing that sort of cracks me up is the requirement that sUAS pilots have a pilots license. For decades the FAA, and all of the other alphabet groups have been saying how we have such a shortfall of qualified pilots. Which means that our aviation system already can't meet the demand for future pilots where the hell to they think the drone pilots are going to be trained? I don't think they've thought this through very well. Let's help...
Yes this will take money for attorney's, a legal defense fund, incorporation, public relations etc., however, I think there's more leverage with a higher membership that doesn't pay dues than there is with a small membership that does. That's not to say that I don't think there should be some kind of membership fee its just that starting up how does that organization "earn" that fee, it has no credibility. So over time a membership fee might be added but at that point we will hopefully have a significant number of members which will perceive a value in the service the organization has grown and demonstrated it can manage, which would also have sponsorship value for vendors, and other organizations might support our efforts at a corporate or philanthropic level. Probably more importantly, as cliche as this sounds but a large subscriber base also represents votes.
I'd like to see our organization solidly positioned between the AMA and AOPA, representing the rights of small business that would enable a junior high school student who joins the AMA and falls in love with flight be able to transition to to this new organization, then if they desire to do this for a living as a small business and then continue on to AOPA as there interest grows to fly bigger planes or missions as either a private or commercial pilot.
I think that all of these organizations have an important role, a responsibility to become good stewards of aviation with each providing mentorship at the level they represent. Currently that path, from dreamer to pilot is disjointed at best and broken at worst. I don't know if its the FAA's fault with over regulation, the economy, or people just don't care about flying anymore, whatever the cause it needs to be fixed. Now we can't fix it all but as part of its charter it should try to work in that direction to provide the opportunity to anyone who wants to fly at any level has the opportunity to be successful.
One thing that sort of cracks me up is the requirement that sUAS pilots have a pilots license. For decades the FAA, and all of the other alphabet groups have been saying how we have such a shortfall of qualified pilots. Which means that our aviation system already can't meet the demand for future pilots where the hell to they think the drone pilots are going to be trained? I don't think they've thought this through very well. Let's help...
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Racerx1962
Member
My two cents:
1. Provide a unified voice for the advancement of commercial sUAS and promote the interests of its members and affiliates.
2. A reasonable fee; perhaps it could be tiered... $25 standard membership; $50 silver (maybe offer insurance or discounts from affiliates?)
3. Yes, by helping recruit members via local chapter.
4. Just like any association, start with volunteers, then eventually hire a director and a staff.
5. It should be a source for news and information for all thing concerning sUAS including aircraft technology, imaging devices, RC tech, legal/regulatory issues, new sUAS applications, piloting gigs, monthly member spotlight, calendar of events (local chapter meetings, annual convention, workshops, etc).
6. Operators/pilots, manufacturers, industry affiliates/clients.
filmfly
Member
Alright guys and girls,
The challenges we are facing, particularly by federal regulators, continue to get worse (and more confusing). We need this collective action more every day! But progress is being made. The website will be ready soon, although if any of you have web developer skills I’d definitely appreciate your help in making it look as great as it can be. Please let me know.
Now, here are the important steps I see us taking – please share your thoughts:
1. GROW THE ORGANIZATION
for instance:
- Build Membership
- Create an Online Presence
- Develop a formal structure and incorporate as a not-for-profit trade association
- Solicit help and connect with sponsors
- Collect revenue
2. CAMPAIGN FOR IMPROVEMENTS
for instance:
- Press releases / interviews with media
- Create online informational content
- Advertising
- Social media and member-organized campaigns
3. CHALLENGE THE PROBLEMS WE FACE
for instance:
- Get representatives on boards / committees to make changes
- Legal challenges to regulations
- Data-driven research and campaigns to convince lawmakers
The most important point of all that is to say, the first step is to Grow the Organization. There are so many people who are with us on this. We just need them to see this opportunity to join.
Lastly, I have a suggestion regarding membership dues. No one wants to give their money to an organization that isn’t going to succeed, not you and not me. But at the same time I don’t want to acquire a significant number of members only to discover that when it comes time to ask for dues no one is willing to put their money where their mouth is. So I propose we ask everyone to join with a known annual membership fee indicated, however we don’t charge anyone until we pass a certain number of members. If we never get enough members, it costs you nothing. Sound fair?
The challenges we are facing, particularly by federal regulators, continue to get worse (and more confusing). We need this collective action more every day! But progress is being made. The website will be ready soon, although if any of you have web developer skills I’d definitely appreciate your help in making it look as great as it can be. Please let me know.
Now, here are the important steps I see us taking – please share your thoughts:
1. GROW THE ORGANIZATION
for instance:
- Build Membership
- Create an Online Presence
- Develop a formal structure and incorporate as a not-for-profit trade association
- Solicit help and connect with sponsors
- Collect revenue
2. CAMPAIGN FOR IMPROVEMENTS
for instance:
- Press releases / interviews with media
- Create online informational content
- Advertising
- Social media and member-organized campaigns
3. CHALLENGE THE PROBLEMS WE FACE
for instance:
- Get representatives on boards / committees to make changes
- Legal challenges to regulations
- Data-driven research and campaigns to convince lawmakers
The most important point of all that is to say, the first step is to Grow the Organization. There are so many people who are with us on this. We just need them to see this opportunity to join.
Lastly, I have a suggestion regarding membership dues. No one wants to give their money to an organization that isn’t going to succeed, not you and not me. But at the same time I don’t want to acquire a significant number of members only to discover that when it comes time to ask for dues no one is willing to put their money where their mouth is. So I propose we ask everyone to join with a known annual membership fee indicated, however we don’t charge anyone until we pass a certain number of members. If we never get enough members, it costs you nothing. Sound fair?
Racerx1962
Member
Ditto
Has anyone looked at this? http://dronepilotsassociation.com/
Av8Chuck
Member
Yes, this is the third itteration of that site, it looked like they were going to take off about the time of all the petitions but never seemed to catch on. I think in part because im not sure exactly what they represent. It's not enough to say that you represent all drone pilots, also it's headed up by attorneys. It's not that I have anything against attorneys, if your going take on regulatory issues you'd better have a lot of good attorneys, but I don't think they have identified the things that are truly important to commercial sUAS.
But for whatever the reason they have not been able to gain much of a membership which demonstrates how much of a challenge this is.
But for whatever the reason they have not been able to gain much of a membership which demonstrates how much of a challenge this is.
Old Man
Active Member
I did and joined somewhat over a month ago. Haven't heard a word since.
Any organization will have to be extremely active to accomplish that which needs be done. A new organization will get off the ground with a lot of planning, document prep, and goodwill but from that point on will require a lot of work. So don't be afraid of hard work. Vendors and manufacturers will need to be contacted, other organizations should receive some interaction, grab any free advertising wherever such can be had. There may well be a need or desire for area "get together's' to build member and community rapport. An attorney or more will have to be acquired, specifically one with tremendous knowledge of the federal and state airspace systems. Yes, I know states don't own any airspace but a few think otherwise.
Somewhere in the middle of all of that someone is going to discover that, crap, all this stuff takes time and money. Not sure which one of those will win out for being most intensive but for sure some kind of dues/membership structure will be necessary. Me thinks that perhaps some type of "sliding" membership could be possible. Juniors that are pure hobby enthuasists could join since they may well someday move to the pro side. Perhaps they would have a reduced membership fee. The established pros in RC might want to join to help protect their status as paid sponsored/team/demo flyers at another rate. Established cinema folks at another tier, with vendors and manufacturers at still one more level. There may even be a place for groups like the EAA and AOPA, although my previous interactions with the AOPA relative to entertaining sUAS operators went over like a fart in church. They may come around with the latest punitive attitude towards licensed pilots operating sUAS for hire though. There's really no good stepping stone for entry level pilots anymore. It's become far too expensive to burn holes in the sky building hours but people still want to fly to make a living. sUAS? Why not? All it would take would be a couple of new pilot classifications, ones that don't require a full scale pilot's license.