Representation for Commercial sUAS

[filmfly]

As many have been discussing on other threads, there have been a lot of changes for us over the past year. Yet for the most part we as the users of sUAS have not had a say in those changes at all. This technology can do amazing, incredibly useful things for people, yet as of now in the United States we are still dragging anchor. As the world begins to see the potential of UAS and the dollar signs of its value, things are changing, the UAS industry is developing at a furious pace, and we as individuals and small businesses are at a critical point.

WE NEED A VOICE. Regulations threaten to squeeze us out of this industry, established corporations are lobbying for their own interests, and the public is downright afraid of us. The AMA is by definition a group for modelers, the AUVSI is mainly interested in aerospace companies and military contractors, and other small new groups are less professionally-oriented and have taken an adversarial stance against the FAA. But becoming an enemy of the FAA does not help us: we need advocacy, not aggression.

IT’S TIME TO ACT! An organization designed to represent commercial sUAS users and their interests needs to be formed. The groundwork has been laid over this past summer with legal efforts and a petition. Although these alone have not yet been enough to tip things in our favor, they have pointed us in the right direction and shown us there is a need and desire to take action. The FAA, the established aerospace industry, and the public need to take us seriously. There are many thousands of us and more every day, and if we join together in a constructive way we will be heard, both within the United States and internationally.

I’m writing this because I want to see this get started. If you are interested in contributing please share your thoughts - and let’s make it happen! Private sUAS hobbyists are welcome to join the discussion as well, even though this is not meant to represent those activities (as that is the AMA's job). There are an incredible number of talented and passionate people on this site and across the UAS industry, and if we put our efforts together I am certain we can give our community a strong voice.

 

[Old Man]

Filmfly,

Here's where I'm at. By definition I'm not a professional in aerial film making, although that's where I'm headed and only the road taken is left to be determined. OTH, after close to 45 years flying RC I'm not technically an amateur either. Let's say I elected to charge someone for RC flight instruction. I become a commercial operation. With what I know and the quality of my teaching I believe some compensation is fair if for nothing else that to assist assurance the pupil will be a little serious in their endeavors.

However, since 2005 I have been paid to fly sUAS at home and abroad as a contractor for various military's and governments. When flying these aircraft at home, all under that magic 55lb limit. It's also been at the point I was paid to be a flight instructor with the airframe an under 55lb sUAS. I'm clearly a professional engaged in commercial aerial activities. Here's the rub; flying the military grade sUAS and no pilot's license has been required. In some cases no COA has been required. About 2007 the most that became a requirement, and still is for the most part, is to obtain an FAA Third Class Medical and pass the FAA Private Pilot written examination. Even that is not written anywhere in the FAR's at this time. The FAA has demonstrated little concern for aero qualifications for those flying military grade hardware under the banner of mega aerospace corporations. That's understandable in a way since there's some language that grand father's military hardware, or hardware intended for military use. There have been no airframe or power plant certification requirements, but rest assured that is very close to changing. With the exception of Predator type birds, no pilot's license has been required and Predator only because the contractor insists on it. For them a Commercial ticket is mandatory for consideration.

So what am I, commercial or a hobbyist? If I fly a multirotor or model and get paid anything the answer is obviously commercial. If I fly a, pardon the expression, true sUAS under military or government colors and get paid for the effort I must be commercial. If I fly my multirotors and film for free I'm a hobbyists. Same with large scale RC. I can't really have it both ways so who will be there for me to call on for help? The AMA? Based on historical performance I think not. There's a lot of people out there that fall into a similar category. The AMA will only do what they do for the true amateur but that sort of falls apart where RC flyers sponsored by manufacturers is concerned. Since they get paid to fly they are professionals. That technically applies to any hobby manufacturer that test flies their products with the intent to sell them to the public. Under the FAR's what they are doing is not incidental. Same applies to the guy that owns the local hobby shop out at the local flying field promoting his business. He's out there flying with the intention of drawing people into his store to buy product.

I don't believe it's a good time to be overly concerned with semantics, especially when so much of the equipment in use is in play on both the hobby and the professional sides of the dollar dividing line. Some overlap between the hard core commercial ops and the in between folks is not going to hurt anyone. A little coordination with the AMA adds a few hundred thousand voices, with often similar interests and an equal right to fly, to the deck in play. I most certainly do agree that for this organization the professional has the upper position but some of what is done could certainly trickle down to those that, at least for the moment, fly for fun.

In any case, I'm in. Now's not the time to quibble.

 

[Racerx1962]

Given that there are associations for all kinds of endeavors, surely we can form one to represent the interests specific to commercial sUAS operators. This industry is still in the embryonic stage... But I agree that we need to band together NOW and establish a 501C6 non-profit organization that will advance the interests of commercializing sUAS. To start, we need to establish a mission statement, organize a board of directors, obtain an EIN, incorporate and then apply for federal, state and, if applicable, local tax exempt status. From there it's all about recruiting membership. I'd love to participate and help get this going.

 

[filmfly]

We're on the right track already, simply by expressing our common desire to work together on the problem. If we start by building the organization and giving it strength and credibility based on a strong membership, opportunities will follow quickly for us to take action and be heard.

Racerx1962 is correct in describing the path ahead. The overall mission of the organization should be fairly clear if we don't let ourselves get stuck in the details. I would like to see an organization that represents anyone with an interest in the use of sUAS technology for commercial or civil applications, and an organization that promotes and defends any safe and respectful operations that create value for society. Hobbyists have the support of the AMA, full-scale pilots have AOPA, and similarly this organization can help those of us who wish to operate sUAS commercially. In fact, I believe AOPA is a great model for such an organization. They lobby and campaign for the interests of their members, provide advocacy and valuable member services, and only charge modest yearly dues. Of course, they didn't start out that way. They started out simply to protect their members' freedom to fly.

Regarding a board of directors we face the same problem any new non-profit faces in that we want the best people to represent us yet we are starting with no money. As a trade association, though, I truly believe that the huge long-term potential of the UAS industry can help us to attract serious people to participate. People at the top of this field, some of whom are reading this now, have a lot to gain by getting involved.

Please share your thoughts here, and better yet, volunteer if you have specific skills that can be of benefit to us. Anyone with PR experience, law degrees, or marketing connections, for instance? There is work to do, but it is achievable. In fact, it is necessary.

 

[Ronan]

Form a 501C6, throw millions at it, wait for results, voila done.

So where do we get our millions from?

All comes down to money.

 

[filmfly]

Money will play a role in this, that's for sure. But it also comes down to how many thousands of people care to speak up at the same time. It also comes down to the amount of effort we put into it. Fundraising will help, but it's not the only tool we need to work with.

The general public still understands so little about sUAS, and we have the opportunity to get a lot of new people on our side. I honestly think we can get a lot more people excited about the positive uses of this technology than the threat of it.

Two months until Christmas, when a whole lot of new quadcopters will be unwrapped. Can we get this organization going before then, to be ready to take advantage of the publicity and interest?

 

[FlyGirl]

Money will play a role in this, that's for sure. But it also comes down to how many thousands of people care to speak up at the same time. It also comes down to the amount of effort we put into it. Fundraising will help, but it's not the only tool we need to work with.

The general public still understands so little about sUAS, and we have the opportunity to get a lot of new people on our side. I honestly think we can get a lot more people excited about the positive uses of this technology than the threat of it.

Two months until Christmas, when a whole lot of new quadcopters will be unwrapped. Can we get this organization going before then, to be ready to take advantage of the publicity and interest?

Just needs someone to spearhead it and a band of brothers (and sisters!) to push things along! I know I am a hobbyist and not a professional but didn't we all start as hobbyists? So in essence, we're just future pros... So how to organize?

 

[FlyGirl]

Just an FYI, I have written an email to an advocacy group named AHS ( https://vtol.org/ ) who is putting a symposium on at the University of Maryland next week. Some of the agenda concerned sUAS and some of it is the larger future delivery UAS. Since I saw some of the agenda was in regards to sUAS I decided to send the email and see where they stand as far as advocacy for the sUAS operator. Their office is in the Washington DC suburbs and they already lobby congress so maybe they would be willing to help. Shot in the dark...

 

[gtranquilla]

Saw a picture once of Werner Von Braun in Germany as a teenager holding a home built rocket along with some rocket club friends.
Even Hitler recognized, to some degree, the value of youth and their potential future contribution via hobby level activity!
Granted he later became USA's versus Germany's valuable asset.

Filmfly,

Here's where I'm at. By definition I'm not a professional in aerial film making, although that's where I'm headed and only the road taken is left to be determined. OTH, after close to 45 years flying RC I'm not technically an amateur either. Let's say I elected to charge someone for RC flight instruction. I become a commercial operation. With what I know and the quality of my teaching I believe some compensation is fair if for nothing else that to assist assurance the pupil will be a little serious in their endeavors.

However, since 2005 I have been paid to fly sUAS at home and abroad as a contractor for various military's and governments. When flying these aircraft at home, all under that magic 55lb limit. It's also been at the point I was paid to be a flight instructor with the airframe an under 55lb sUAS. I'm clearly a professional engaged in commercial aerial activities. Here's the rub; flying the military grade sUAS and no pilot's license has been required. In some cases no COA has been required. About 2007 the most that became a requirement, and still is for the most part, is to obtain an FAA Third Class Medical and pass the FAA Private Pilot written examination. Even that is not written anywhere in the FAR's at this time. The FAA has demonstrated little concern for aero qualifications for those flying military grade hardware under the banner of mega aerospace corporations. That's understandable in a way since there's some language that grand father's military hardware, or hardware intended for military use. There have been no airframe or power plant certification requirements, but rest assured that is very close to changing. With the exception of Predator type birds, no pilot's license has been required and Predator only because the contractor insists on it. For them a Commercial ticket is mandatory for consideration.

So what am I, commercial or a hobbyist? If I fly a multirotor or model and get paid anything the answer is obviously commercial. If I fly a, pardon the expression, true sUAS under military or government colors and get paid for the effort I must be commercial. If I fly my multirotors and film for free I'm a hobbyists. Same with large scale RC. I can't really have it both ways so who will be there for me to call on for help? The AMA? Based on historical performance I think not. There's a lot of people out there that fall into a similar category. The AMA will only do what they do for the true amateur but that sort of falls apart where RC flyers sponsored by manufacturers is concerned. Since they get paid to fly they are professionals. That technically applies to any hobby manufacturer that test flies their products with the intent to sell them to the public. Under the FAR's what they are doing is not incidental. Same applies to the guy that owns the local hobby shop out at the local flying field promoting his business. He's out there flying with the intention of drawing people into his store to buy product.

I don't believe it's a good time to be overly concerned with semantics, especially when so much of the equipment in use is in play on both the hobby and the professional sides of the dollar dividing line. Some overlap between the hard core commercial ops and the in between folks is not going to hurt anyone. A little coordination with the AMA adds a few hundred thousand voices, with often similar interests and an equal right to fly, to the deck in play. I most certainly do agree that for this organization the professional has the upper position but some of what is done could certainly trickle down to those that, at least for the moment, fly for fun.

In any case, I'm in. Now's not the time to quibble.

 

[kloner]

This certainly seems doable..... success would come from how the thought process is put into it and how bipartisan everyone involved is..... It's really hard to get a group big enough to cover the costs at a reasonable rate unless you could recruit a lot of phantom jockey weekend warriors and to me is the only draw back, none the less they are the hobbyist that see a future. unfortunately there probably the last place there ever gonna let this stuff take place. If i was looking for a road out, i'd be getting ahold of organizations that represent the targeted workflow so if your in ag, an ag group, power lines, electric company groups and so on. there the ones with power and an interest in helping you get this so they can use you. A good consultant/lobbyist is a huge advantage.

 

[Old Man]

You name a good contact group but I believe it's much more expansive than that. There are many that have yet to realize that what they have been doing for a long time is about to be classified as a commercial aviation activity.

 

[Old Man]

Just an FYI, I have written an email to an advocacy group named AHS ( https://vtol.org/ ) who is putting a symposium on at the University of Maryland next week. Some of the agenda concerned sUAS and some of it is the larger future delivery UAS. Since I saw some of the agenda was in regards to sUAS I decided to send the email and see where they stand as far as advocacy for the sUAS operator. Their office is in the Washington DC suburbs and they already lobby congress so maybe they would be willing to help. Shot in the dark...

Good on you!

 

[Racerx1962]

I've read that the insurance industry is starting to lobby for the use of MRs for disaster surveys. I'm still of the opinion that an association for the commercial use of sUAS is doable... getting insurance, agriculture, real estate, civil engineering and other industries to support it is where you'll get your support and funding for a viable organization.

 

[filmfly]

Just an FYI, I have written an email to an advocacy group named AHS ( https://vtol.org/ ) who is putting a symposium on at the University of Maryland next week. Some of the agenda concerned sUAS and some of it is the larger future delivery UAS. Since I saw some of the agenda was in regards to sUAS I decided to send the email and see where they stand as far as advocacy for the sUAS operator. Their office is in the Washington DC suburbs and they already lobby congress so maybe they would be willing to help. Shot in the dark...

Thanks FlyGirl, that's a great idea. Perhaps we'll get lucky and they'll see why this is important for them as well. At the very least it's great to reach out and let new groups know about the discussion that is going on, and to invite them to join in.

 

[filmfly]

This certainly seems doable..... success would come from how the thought process is put into it and how bipartisan everyone involved is..... It's really hard to get a group big enough to cover the costs at a reasonable rate unless you could recruit a lot of phantom jockey weekend warriors and to me is the only draw back, none the less they are the hobbyist that see a future. unfortunately there probably the last place there ever gonna let this stuff take place. If i was looking for a road out, i'd be getting ahold of organizations that represent the targeted workflow so if your in ag, an ag group, power lines, electric company groups and so on. there the ones with power and an interest in helping you get this so they can use you. A good consultant/lobbyist is a huge advantage.

Thanks for adding your thoughts, Kloner. There was a good point made earlier I believe that it's not as important what someone flies as their intentions of flying it. I think a lot of people who start off with RTF's and small kits end up with professional sUAS ambitions. It would be great to welcome both sides, bipartisan as you said.

I definitely like the idea of approaching the industries that will be using this technology. As Racerx1962 said, they stand to benefit perhaps the most and yes, I think some of them have already realized this and are interested in pushing for the same thing we are. All we have to do is give them a way to help.

 

[kloner]

the FAA is encouraging people to file being represented by there trade groups, nothing stops a group from limiting the participants.....

 

[Ronan]

Well the FAA lies have just took their tolls on me!

I just got denied a $100k+ contract i have been meticulously working on getting this past 3 month.

Reason: FAA say's drones are illegal.
Apparently that companies legal team can't do any research... and it's even on private property where the FAA has ZERO say on it's airspace (closed airspace, only that company is allowed to fly there + who ever they hire!!!).

I'm meeting contacting the head of the legal department. Does anyone have some concrete information/links i can provide?

 

[kloner]

try showing them the Pirker ruling. private property isn't private airspace, only place that works is when airspace is military controlled and your there with them.

What your telling somebody asking for it to be legal is that unlawful is the same as legal. Good luck

 

[Ronan]

try showing them the Pirker ruling. private property isn't private airspace, only place that works is when airspace is military controlled and your there with them.

What your telling somebody asking for it to be legal is that unlawful is the same as legal. Good luck

Their airspace is private since it's a power plant. No commercial or military flights are allowed above it, at any space.

Their problem is the media keeps saying drones are illegal. When they approached the FAA out of good will, the FAA says its illegal, but provided zero backing (ie laws).

 

[Racerx1962]

What is needed, IMHO, is a unified front to advance the interests of commercial sUAS across the spectrum of various industries. Such an organization could recruit those industries that have the most to gain from this technology (i.e. insurance, agriculture, real estate, Hollywood, MR manufacturers, etc.) into a very formidable association. This approach would be much more efficient/effective versus a haphazard approach whereby each industry is lobbying for the same end result. Again, I say we take the first step... incorporate, get volunteers to form a board of directors, write a mission statement, apply for 501C6 status and start recruiting members (especially CORPORATE members). I'm willing to invest some time and even a few hundred bucks to get help get it kickstarted... The National Association for Commercial Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems NACSUAS... Thoughts?