Pixhawk the new flight controller from 3DR

dazzab

Member
Can anyone tell me if there is a calibration procedure that has to be done to use the Pixhawk. I know that with Autoquad and Zero UAV there is quite a bit that has to be done before you can get in the air?
From memory it's the standard type of things. Load the firmware for the type of craft you are using, calibrate radio, set ESC throttle range, do a compass dance, set what flight modes you want on the Tx and off you go. Stock PIDs fly just about anything fairly nicely but there's a cool auto tune routine that can be done in the air that will fine tune them. There's a wizard for all this in the Mission Planner software but I haven't used it. I think it's all fairly self-explanatory these days.
 



Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
do we have any members of the site using successfully Pixhawk on a regular basis? for what?

thanks,
bart
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Well, I am, but you probably new that. ;)

I've got a Pixhawk on a F450 crash test quad. And one on my Trex450ish development heli. I then have a PX4 (basically same thing) on an MSH Protos 475 stretch I developed for aerial mapping and FPV training. And another on my 600 size camera-ship. Flew all the helis a bunch last weekend.
 

dankreed

New Member
R_lefebvre.

I would like to chat with you i have attempted to send you a couple PMs but it looks as if they are not going through.. they might be can you please send me a PM ?
 


dazzab

Member
do we have any members of the site using successfully Pixhawk on a regular basis? for what?
I don't know if you followed my SkyJib build thread but I was flying it with an APM and then Pixhawk. I had various successes and various failures. End of story I gave up on Pixhawk when one of the developers gave me crap about how much time I was taking up and how stupid I was. So I moved on to learning about DJI Wookong on the SkyJib and a SuperX on my Droidworx hexa. Those have been working extremely well for me. I kept the APMs on two quads because I have plans for using them that require the advanced features of way points and autonomous flight. I also think the Pixhawk is the way to go with planes which I'll be working with in the near future.

I'm not sure what your specific interest is in the Pixhawk but after spending a couple of years working with that platform and knowing one of the lead developers personally, I came to the conclusion that it just wasn't suitable for my needs for a camera ship. It's not that it isn't capable but it takes up a lot of time to follow the quick development and keep up with everything. Personally, I think the devs are a bit out of touch with certain groups of users. IMHO it's very fixed wing centric. I was hoping to contribute by beta testing with heavy lift copters which a lot of people aren't willing to test with. It cost me a lot of time and money. I got a fair amount out of it but unfortunately it appears that when I thought I was contributing I was actually annoying instead.

So I'll still be using Pixhawk because it's an amazing platform. But when I want to get out there and concentrate on photography I now go with DJI and SuperX. In all honesty, I haven't had a single crash with those two platforms since starting with them and I had dozens with the APM/Pixhawk for various reasons. Even my underpowered SkyJib, which Arducopter couldn't keep in the air with the PID values set by the auto tuning procedure, flies just fine with DJI and all I did was move up from 15" to 16" props.
 
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BatCam

RPAS Pilot
I'm the opposite of you dazzab, sort of. I started with APM on my skyjib x4 heavy (I also run APM on my TBS discovery), then when I realised apm and octo's weren't friendly, swapped to DJI wkm, was not at all impressed with the backend, tuning, and mode options, and I've just got a new pixhawk to put on the rig. Will update here with results once it's ready to fly again (2 weeks probably). Excited to see what R_Lefebvre has in store in 3.2 version!
 

dazzab

Member
I'm the opposite of you dazzab, sort of. I started with APM on my skyjib x4 heavy (I also run APM on my TBS discovery), then when I realised apm and octo's weren't friendly, swapped to DJI wkm, was not at all impressed with the backend, tuning, and mode options, and I've just got a new pixhawk to put on the rig. Will update here with results once it's ready to fly again (2 weeks probably). Excited to see what R_Lefebvre has in store in 3.2 version!
I was a very early user of the Pixhawk on a heavy lifter. It didn't go well for me. Don't forget the Arducopter code is identical on the APM/Pixhawk. The Pixhawk does allow some better filtering due to it's faster processor but IMHO the code just isn't up to the task of use for professional level photography just yet. I really don't know why the Wookong works better for me but it's quite noticeable. It's smoother, the motors even sound better. The copter takes off smoothly and lands like a feather. With the Pixhawk takeoffs were unpredictable and landings often times would end up with the copter tipping over. The auto tuning routine in Arducopter that worked so well for me with smaller copters seems to set gains too high on larger copters. The stability routines in Arducopter simply won't handle a heavy copter pushing hover rates which many camera ships will be doing. It will sacrifice lift for stability and the copter will fall to the ground. Again, I have no idea why the Wookong can deal with that situation better. Lots of people spend a lot of time tuning PIDs in Arducopter. Wookong just works, very smoothly and seems to get better as you fly. I've seen more than one person speculate that DJI software is doing some sort of in air tuning.

I _really_ wanted the Pixhawk to work better. It's an incredible project and I'm a huge advocate of free and open source software/hardware. I think there are about 30 devs working on it around the world for the past six years or so. They are very clever people and interesting to work with. I gave it more than a fair test and put my money where my mouth was. Now I spend my time and efforts on the photography side of things and spend next to no time at all worrying about how the copter is going to fly or repairing it. I tried explaining this to the devs but that didn't go too well. 99.9% of problems people blame on the flight controller come back to user error which the extensive logging documents quite well. They are working on so many things and dealing with so many people that specific needs like fine tuning for aerial photography may or may not get attention. I'm afraid for the time being there are other controllers better suited for the use of professional photography. Kills me to say that but that's been my experience.

Now, if you want to do really cool things with a fixed wing plane like automated search and rescue then Pixhawk/Ardupilot beats all the other FCs combined hands down. It also excels for research applications.
 

jfro

Aerial Fun
Interesting read here plus a whole lot of drama over Pixhawk going on in other forums regarding open source.

I'm dazed and confused as I read through all this. I currently have 3 MR's, all for video & some photo usage. Testing Pixhawk on my small quad with gopro. Naza V2 on a larger quad with 3520 KDE motors. Then larger x8 w/ SuperX (xAircraft) and 3515 Avroto's.

I was hoping that the Pixhawk, over a period of time might eventually prove out to be my main FC. Knowing there will be a learning curve, but once learned, not that much overhead to keep tuned.

Now after reading this thread about others experience (good and bad) AND about the goings on of the open source code issues to protect it from Pixhawk cloners, I'm getting discouraged. Very complicated this open source world and Pixhawk......

I'm going to stay with it for a while, but not get my hopes up. My little quad flew so well with the Naza V2, that I'm wondering why waste my time. There's something fun and stressless about flying that small quad that I do hope I can get it tuned properly, sooner than later. So far, I tried it with the F450 plastic arms and then with my aluminum 550mm setup and have not gotten auto tune to complete. Used Maytech 40 amp Simonk's on 450 and plush 30's on the 550mm version. Using 900kv Tiger motors and 10" props w/ 5000mah 4s batteries.

My main hope was to eventually fly it on my X8. Maybe improvements will come on the SuperX and it won't be an issue, but still hunting for a top notch x8 performer.

I've only been flying for a year now but followed the MR world for about 3 years. I'm constantly amazed at the current state of flight controllers. It's a moving target and it seems they are all flawed to some extent. I've certainly spent way too much time and money on the 4 flight controllers (these 3 plus the HoverFly Pro). I knew when I started if I caught the bug, 1 MR wouldn't satisfy me, but I never dreamed I'd spend so much time on testing, spending money, and searching for a rock solid performing flight controller.

Just reading the 2 opinions here by BatCam and dazzab (which are based on hands on experience), sort of sums up my dazzed and confused mind. Will be interested in hearing more from each.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
R_lefebvre.

I would like to chat with you i have attempted to send you a couple PMs but it looks as if they are not going through.. they might be can you please send me a PM ?

Hi, I did get your PM's. You'll have to understand that I am an EXTREMELY busy guy. You fired off a couple communications before I had any opportunity to respond. I'm not sure if I'll be able to give you the help that you're requesting. I try to do what I can, but there's limits to my free time. And doing things in PM or Skype is a very inefficient use of my time. If you have some questions, you can look for answers at this forum, and then ask the question if there isn't already an answer. This method fills out the forum for more people to find answers:

http://ardupilot.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=66&sid=d1447b579d7c741d379934fdbd2a131b



dazzab: It's unfortunate what happened in your situation. I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement that Arducopter doesn't work for camera work. There are plenty of people using it for that. Many of your problems were of your own making. You have to admit that. You had the motor order wrong at one point. And your copter does not have a lot of extra thrust, hovering around 75%. If it works well with a Wookong then... it is what it is. I can't explain that without really going in-depth on the Wookong. Other than that, I think you had a clash of personality with some of the other devs. It's unfortunate, but it happens. If you had any opportunity to talk to DJI engineers, the same thing might happen. But that's not even possible so, you don't see it.
 

dankreed

New Member
Hi, I did get your PM's. You'll have to understand that I am an EXTREMELY busy guy. You fired off a couple communications before I had any opportunity to respond. I'm not sure if I'll be able to give you the help that you're requesting. I try to do what I can, but there's limits to my free time. And doing things in PM or Skype is a very inefficient use of my time. If you have some questions, you can look for answers at this forum, and then ask the question if there isn't already an answer.

Understood but as you mentioned in another thread I post in. "no one" has adapted a pixhawk to a large 800mm gasser leads me to believe I won't find answers in the forum. I will figure this out re inventing the wheel slows the process down.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Well, if you want to get a thread going there, we can all participate on moving it forward. The biggest issue is going to be vibration damping the board. I'm pretty sure it can be done.
 

dazzab

Member
dazzab: It's unfortunate what happened in your situation. I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement that Arducopter doesn't work for camera work. There are plenty of people using it for that. Many of your problems were of your own making. You have to admit that.

I have tried to be careful to say that the Pixhawk did not work for _me_ in spite of doing extensive trials. That is a report of my experiences. That last incident where Leonard butted in and was such an *** was only one of many. I don't care if there was a personality clash. You just don't talk to people like that in public. I operate a tech support service and have NEVER spoken to anyone like that. I've seen others treated that way as well. You guys keep harping on me making mistakes. If there's anyone who admits to and even publishes his mistakes it's me. I do this to try and save others from making the same mistakes.

The same thing happened very recently to another user but it turned out he was a fellow engineer. In spite of Leonard stating categorically that it was his mistake, he posted proof of a bug in the code. It took him quite a while to convince the devs in spite of extensive testing. He eventually just fixed the bug and contributed it to the code. There have been other examples. The logs from my own SkyJib were used by Tridge and Randy to correct a problem with the barometer giving false readings when it became hot. There are many other examples. I'm sorry but Arducopter IMHO and based on my experiences is simply not in a stable enough state yet to be used in a commercial environment. Others can make up their own mind if my experiences and opinion based on tests are valid or not.

I do a lot of things right as well, and I have a lot of experience and knowledge of the project that others would not have. I'm trying to tell you guys that even as someone with probably more experience and capability than many, getting Arducopter working for large camera ships in my experience was quite poor. That's an opportunity, not a problem. But it was totally lost and in the process and cost me a lot of time and money.

You are totally incorrect about lots of people using Arducopter for professional photography. This forum has the real pros in the industry. Ask them if you don't believe me. In all the time I've been asking only one person who is actually making a living as a commercial photographer has said that they use Aruducopter. DJI and Wookong along with a few others are the clear choice for professionals. It's a fact I would have loved to change but as long as Arducopter is trying to be all things to all people and remains so fixed wing centric it will never outperform a Wookong.

Mr Challenger from 3DR and you were the most sensible people I spoke to about all this. The only way to really quantify this is a with a proper controlled test. I hope to visit Droidworx in New Zealand next year. I plan to make a proposal to them to loan me two identical SkyJibs while I'm there to fly with both flight controllers for a direct test.

I know you are an expert in the area of flight controllers. Your posts are amazing and the amount of input your provide is astonishing. I can't thank you enough. I am a highly qualified and experienced photographic expert, albeit having that interrupted by decades in the IT industry as a systems admin. Many members of MRF are also experts who do this for a living. When it comes to how to use a multi rotor for professional level photography they are years beyond anyone on the Arducopter project and could offer you a lot of valuable information. Personally I saw little interest from the devs of Arducopter in supporting this specific area which is totally fine as they can't be all things to all people. So it was fantastic to see you pop up here. It would be great if Arducopter performed as well as commercial FCs in this area but it doesn't in my experience and that's just fine. It excels in so many other areas.

So I put my money and time where my mouth was when trying to provide concrete facts that Arucopter was useful for professional camera platforms. My final report is that it didn't work out for many reasons. Members can read about that if they like or they can go out and do their own testing. For the time being I am now out of resources to contribute further. For me I need to move on to getting some work done. It's most unfortunate that work won't be done with the Pixhawk and Arducopter but I already have plenty of proof from using other flight controllers that I get a lot more done with professional/commercial flight controllers.

I would say that in six months to a year I will have proof of that with some stunning visuals. That's what counts here. Go through the 'Show me what you filmed' thread and find one where Arducopter and APM/Pixhawk were used. Those are what I use for performance indicators. Results speak for themselves.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I don't disagree with what you're saying there. I tried to intercede as a level-headed middle-man. I think it was too little too late though unfortunately. I wish I'd seen the whole thing earlier.

I do still stand by my point that there are people using Arducopter for professional AP. They just aren't here. MRF has a good collection of people, but it's by no means all of them.

It's true that Arducopter can be harder to set up than other systems. I don't think that it's because something is wrong with it. It's because we simply allow more adjust-ability... plus it has SO many more features. I think where that really hurts is that people who are trying to scratch together a living doing this, just don't have time to figure this stuff out. You only need a flying tripod, not a flying dolly track. I'm trying to position myself as a middle-man, that's where my strength lie. Education, training, setup, consultation, systems engineering, etc... One problem though is that, we've all been giving everything away for free for so long, people expect everything to continue to be free. This is not a statement about you, just a general statement about the program. I've had a number of contract talks, but they dry up as soon as it's time for money to actually change hands. Somewhat frustrating from my perspective.

As far as reliability of the system is concerned, I categorically reject the idea that DJI is better. Or really any system. Just because our flaws are exposed for all to see, does not mean that we have more of them. They're just more visible. A user helping to find a bug is not an indication of the problem with the program. It's an example of the strength of the program, and the benefits of open source. These exact same sorts of problems could exist on the closed source systems. It's just when you report them the response is "Sorry for your loss, please buy another" you get "Oh crap, that's a bug, we can fix that." And the problem gets FIXED, is the point. We have 10,000 people test flying the code, and submitting valuable data back that helps make it better. But, our failures are a little more visible.

And I really don't see anything about AP that has specific requirements that do not fit into the all-things-to-all-people goal of Arducopter. So your aircraft is kinda heavy and underpowered. There's really no magic there, DJI can't give your copter more power. It may leave you with more reserve power, but I think in a tricky situation like wind, or evasive manoevers, you may suddenly find you have the same problem. And you want your PID gains lower for smoothness. Ok, I actually developed code that gives you the best of both worlds. Really tight PIDS, with smoother control inputs. It got significantly changed when it went into trunk and I haven't flown it yet. I hope it came out OK. I was specifically targeting the AP crowd with that. Spline nav is going to be epic too.

Anyway, I guess I'm just rambling so I'll cut myself off. :)
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
hi everyone,

i'm sorry if i touched a nerve by asking the question that i did. was just curious as to what was getting done with the platform at this point as we haven't seen a whole lot of people adopting it and reporting back. lots have tried but no long term community built up here around it. usually that means the vacuum of the vendor's website is too strong or our users aren't following through and regularly flying the platform. I myself have an APM 2.5 that almost made it onto a helicopter but still seems to keep getting put off for other more pressing projects.

interesting stuff though. would love to see it fully developed/embraced one day.

Bart
 

dazzab

Member
I do still stand by my point that there are people using Arducopter for professional AP. They just aren't here. MRF has a good collection of people, but it's by no means all of them.
Please provide a link to their work. It would be most unusual if they didn't have some publicly viewable work online somewhere. Sorry, but I'm going to need some proof rather than just claims. I know Marco and Randy posted some nice videos with heavy copters. I believe Marco is a working professional but I think even he isn't using Pixhawk for his paid work. Anyway, I'd really like to see some examples. Proof is in the results. So where is it?
A user helping to find a bug is not an indication of the problem with the program.
Of course not. It was provided as an example of the arrogance of some developers and how users who are only trying to help are being treated. It's there for all to read and judge for themselves.

As far as reliability of the system is concerned, I categorically reject the idea that DJI is better.
Have you actually flown a DJI based system? I was shocked to find out that some of the devs have never even seen another FC let alone used them. So how in the world would you know? Honestly, I'm very surprised as well. I used only APM/Pixhawk Arducopter for years. I fly with friends that use DJI and watched how their copters were flying when I had problems. It just didn't seem to me that the FC could be making that difference. Now I have some experience with DJI and SuperX. Sorry, but my copters now fly better and I haven't had a single crash or even had the copter tip on landing. You can argue with that all you want, but that's what happened. I'm telling you that the copter is much smoother and it even sounds different. Don't take my word for it. Just go experience it for yourself. I'll say it again, my SkyJib with the DJI Wookong flys much better with smooth take offs, smooth landing and doesn't fall out of the air as it did with Arducopter. I don't know why, I just know what I see and experience. I so wish we lived close to each other so we could just go out and fly together and nut this all out. I will be in Colorado in a couple of weeks and California next week if you want to meet me. Canada isn't that far away. :) I'll have a Droidworx hexa with me flying with a SuperX.
 
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R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
hi everyone,

i'm sorry if i touched a nerve by asking the question that i did. was just curious as to what was getting done with the platform at this point as we haven't seen a whole lot of people adopting it and reporting back. lots have tried but no long term community built up here around it. usually that means the vacuum of the vendor's website is too strong or our users aren't following through and regularly flying the platform. I myself have an APM 2.5 that almost made it onto a helicopter but still seems to keep getting put off for other more pressing projects.

interesting stuff though. would love to see it fully developed/embraced one day.

Bart

No nerve touched. ;) Dazzab didn't like his experience, and there's definitely some good reason for that. But I don't think it should go down as the defining statement of the status of Arducopter. The fact that there are not many people *here* using it, doesn't really have much to do with the status of the system either. Demographics plays a role. Most people here believe "you get what you pay for", to the extent that they'll pay 2, 3, 4 times as much for the exact same ESC depending on what's on the label. And Arducopter being ~$200 doesn't make people think they are getting a quality product. That's the opposite of people at RCG who think $200 is ridiculously high, and will spend hours and hours and hours futzing around with janky clone hardware just to save $100.

I don't mean this to be insulting, it's just a statement about what I see in the market.

dazzab, I would love to do a comparison test, but do not have the money to buy them, nor the time to set them up. I've actually got a VBAR clone in a box, and a bunch of Open Pilot stuff somebody gave me. I just don't have time. Regardless, without getting into it, I do not need to fly a DJI system to understand the issues it has.
 

SMP

Member
Ok guys, I very much respect the opinions of the posters in this thread. IF we left Heavy AP out of the equation- How do you guys think it would fare on Light AP - GoPros/Point and Shoots on LongArm/Low KV/Big Prop combos?
 

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