Flying Question

[jforkner]

Probably an obvious answer, but I can't figure it out. So here goes...

My flying experience is based on fixed-wing aircraft, both real & R/C. In forward flight, if I want to make a turn, I simply bank and pull back on the elevator. The plane rolls and makes a coordinated turn in the appropriate direction.

With my Naza-controlled quad & hexa, the same stick movements results in a "skidding side-slide." For example, when flying forward (elevator stick forward) and wanting to make a turn, moving the aileron stick in the desired direction causes the 'copter to simply move (slight bank in the direction of the stick-movement) in what I'll describe as a skid---still moving & pointed forward. If I then release the elevator stick that was causing the forward motion and/or pull back on it, the .copter simply stops moving forward (or backs up, depending). To get it to make a coordinated turn, similar to an airplane, I need to add some yaw (rudder stick) in addition to the aforementioned elevator & aileron stick movements.

So I guess the question is...is that just the way it is and I need to learn a technique using aileron, elevator, & rudder sticks? Or is there another technique I'm missing & don't understand? I ask this in light of having viewed some videos from MCs where it appears the MC is banking & tracking like an airplane (i.e., moving forward in a banked, coordinated turn). I fly exclusively in Atti-mode, so I'm sure that's part (or, perhaps, all) of it. Would flying in manual-mode react differently? Or do other FCs operate differently from the Naza?

But understanding the dynamics of flight, I don't see how a different mode or FC could make a difference. Seems like it all boils down to technique which I have not mastered. Is that correct?

Thanks for any input, suggestions, or technique you may have to offer.


Jack

 

[kloner]

in how i fly theres two different attitudes, 45 degrees up on end and flat. I'll be going 45 degrees wide open, that all i do is hold the cyclic full forward and give the same said cyclic left or right with a small combigned rudder input and she flies around. other times especially at the end of a long run i let off the cyclic and let it flatten out, then i have to continue flat to a little forward cyclic combigned with mostly rudder to steer it. pretty much what you describe doing but instead of pulling back on the stick to pull nose up, i make dji keep forward movement with just a little ail to make the turn stick but with alot of rudder to actually make the turn. gains and cg really make a difference in this part......

this is usually right around 130 across the top manual gains and 88-90 on the atti part.

1:30 and 3:30

:20, :45, 2:20

there real easy to feel like your sliding,,,,, but the rudder and a little banking helps alot

 

[jforkner]

Thanks, Steve. So I guess it's just technique. And I assume cyclic means elevator/aileron to us fixed-wing guys?

My gains are about the same as yours and the CG is centered.

Thanks for the info. I guess I just have to practice, practice, practice.


Jack

 

[kloner]

yes, ail-ele. i fly both so i get mixed up there...... I've noticed with these fpv type craft actual forward flight and cg tends to like it back just a tad, that way when it's tilted forward at all it evens up the cg pretty straight..... the motors being up top of the mass moves cg forward just tilting it. If its hard to turn, try sliding your pack around and see if you find one spot easier than another....... your style of flight is gonna depend how far back upon how far forward you tilt em to do it all. The video up there on the tracks shows it all, the rest were gimbled so it's hard to see all the forward input.

 

[hjls3]

Jack - looking at your pic it seems you fly a hexa. Me too, however, this weekend I flew a quad for the first time. Happens to be one of Kloners rigs. Awesome by the way. But back to the topic - I quickly thought that the quad flew more like a plane to me. When flying the hexas it seems to me that they turn alot flatter, thinking its just me - however the quad sure made the aileron type turn easy for me. It also changed directions alot better than the hexa. I am comparing two MR both with NAZA

I have only been flying MR for a short time - so I might be completely wrong about this. Not sure. AM sure I noticed a difference between quad and hexa and how they turn.

 

[Tomstoy2]

Hey Jforkner! it depends what your intention is, really. For video work you try to keep the acft as flat as possible in a turn, just yawing the acft, thereby inducing as little movement on a gimbal as possible. Of course, this works best at low to medium speeds.

At high speeds, when needing to make a tight turn it's pretty much just the same movements as a fixed wing acft. This will require jockying the throttle a little to keep the multi on an even keel as it will require a little more power, backing off the throttle when you start to level back out to keep the same altitude.

Sport flying is pretty much all the same as fixed wing, to a point.

When are we going to see some more of your vids, buddy?

 

[kloner]

as soon as i get a wk light, i'm gonna run this 550 down to the desert to give a go. I'll stop and fly the tracks to get a apple to apple comparison of the two.

Tom, is your 550 a wk or naza?

 

[Tomstoy2]

Kloner, it's a WKM, that's why I was in such a panic when I couldn't find it in the pumpkins. Just about got it all back together now. Discovered another broken boom yesterday, so I'm waiting on that. Also, waiting on my pixim camera from overseas.

 

[kloner]

that's right. I'm anxious to see if they fly the same..... Ouch,,, that was a pretty tame crash for a mechanical failure, especially loosing a prop. Crazy, a quad would have been a yard sale

 

[Tomstoy2]

You're right about that!
I just practice what my flight instructor taught me, back in the day. " Best chance of surviving is to fly as far into the crash as possible!"

 

[DucktileMedia]

You will have to get a feel for every individual heli but it's normally more rudder than aileron. I find it helps to try and keep a constant forward speed in a turn. You really should get a simulator to figure all this out before you make the "big" crash with your hex. A plane naturally banks and lifts with the roll but a heli needs all these inputs manually.

 

[BerndM]

Hey Kloner
Fantastic videos! Thanks for sharing!
The video where you are flying down the train tracks, how far from your location do you figure you flew?
Seemed like a loonngg way.
What do you think you top speed was during that flight?
Thanks

 

[kloner]

4000 feet one way then went by myself about a mile. it was doing 55-65 mph a few feet up. The zeph went down to the freeway and went 8000' that way

Thanks
<br>

 

[shsober]

About coordinated turns with a hexacopter. Would some dihedral in the motors help with rolling to banking? I've been wondering about how important dihedral is, like the S800.

 

[jforkner]

You will have to get a feel for every individual heli but it's normally more rudder than aileron. I find it helps to try and keep a constant forward speed in a turn. You really should get a simulator to figure all this out before you make the "big" crash with your hex. A plane naturally banks and lifts with the roll but a heli needs all these inputs manually.

Yeah, you're probably right about the sim. Can you recommend one with realistic MC flight?

Thanks.


Jack

 

[kloner]

yes it does but i see some buffeting in straight aways like imagine in an airliner on approach, but not dropping down, just flying along.....

this has about 1.5 degree dihedral

i think more would make it worse. @ 6:30 it really buffets through that turn... wind makes it worse, no wind makes it better than not dihedral

but still, either way with naza it's an unatural feeling but you push forward on the stick through a turn, planes you pull back

 

[jforkner]

Jack - looking at your pic it seems you fly a hexa. Me too, however, this weekend I flew a quad for the first time. Happens to be one of Kloners rigs. Awesome by the way. But back to the topic - I quickly thought that the quad flew more like a plane to me. When flying the hexas it seems to me that they turn alot flatter, thinking its just me - however the quad sure made the aileron type turn easy for me. It also changed directions alot better than the hexa. I am comparing two MR both with NAZA

I have only been flying MR for a short time - so I might be completely wrong about this. Not sure. AM sure I noticed a difference between quad and hexa and how they turn.

My hexa is used primarily for shooting still photos, so I'm not so concerned about coordinated turns with it. I also have an F450 that I'm trying to use for video, so that's the craft I'm working on turns with forward movement. I think I'm just going to have to keep experimenting and practicing until I find what works for me. Fixed-wing flying was so natural to me, I'm just struggling with the different inputs required on a MC.


Jack

 

[shsober]

I have been working toward my F550 project for 9 months now. I have tons of RC sailplane flying experience but that was with rudder, elevator and spoilers. The addition of the left thumb has been a real challenge. I have the RealFlight simulator which has really helped and I've worked my way into helicopters with small coaxials and into the Blade SR 120 fixed pitch. I've also tried the 130x but it's too twitchy for my liking. The Blade MQx quad is a great tool for learning too. You can get these helicopters BNF and start out with a good radio that'll stay with you as you get more complicated. All this by way of saying that stick time is time. There aren't any shortcuts and flying a helicopter, as someone recently put it, is like balancing a marble on a piece of glass. It's taken me this long to feel competent with the multi rotor on manual. So much to learn! (And thank goodness, so much willing help!)

 

[DLien]

You’re right about the mode not having any impact on dynamics of flight. Atti-mode provides altitude hold and some positive control stability, meaning that when the stick is released, the flight controller will maintain a level attitude.

If you have some forward momentum and let go of the stick (center the pitch and aileron) you will continue flying along that same path. Whatever airspeed you have at that point will gradually bleed off until you end up in “a drifting in the wind” hover. I have found that flying in this flat attitude is the most like flying fixed wing when trying to make nice coordinated turns.

I have been mucking around recently with channel mixing on the DX8 I have. I have a flight mode set to mix the aileron and rudder controls. When the mode is switched on, the transmitter adds 50% of the aileron command to rudder as well. I am not sure that 50% is the right amount for the mix but it’s in the ballpark. When I have nose down, making forward progress it seems about right. I think it is because the aileron commands when the nose is down are usually small. When I flatten out and drift, it feels a bit light but I can manual add more to correct the problem. I have found that I can make nicer, tighter coordinated turns with this set up.