FAA and Hollywood, progress?

[Old Man]

In this we come to the division that can either make us or break us. Aviation knowledge does not have to include the ability to fly a full scale airplane. In this I agree. Although I hold a Commercial and Instructor ticket I don't see the need for people that fly very low level, short distance, and short duration to be required to have a full scale Pilot's license. However, I most certainly DO believe they should be well versed in aviation knowledge, be able to speak in aviation vernacular, meet the same medical standards as a full scale pilot flying for hire, be able to communicate on a two way radio with pilot's and ATC, read an aeronautical chart so they can stay the heck out of the way of full scale in those places they could end up going bump.

So no, a ful scale ticket should not be required but I see nothing at all wrong with a good ground school syllabus that gets everyone working on the same page. This is why better definition of who we are is critically important. Are we going to be blasting up to 5,000 to 20,000' to shoot pictures or survey farm fields? Heck no, for the most part we'll all be under 400' or so and well within a mile of ourselves. Our flight systems won't last long enough for us to take off and fly the mission and make it back to the launch location with 30 or 45 minutes of battery reserves. The concept is ludicrous. Are we going to fly when visibility is close to zero? Not hardly. So we need better definition in order to generate rules and regulations that are applicable to the situation. We're going to have rules, like it or not, so far better that we make and present those rules than have someone completely out of touch with what we do and are do that for us.

There's a need for some type of association/organization similar to what Private Pilot's have to build our niche in the airspace by defining who and what we are, along with what we fly and do. It doesn't have to be some crazy totalitarian thing but there's a whole lot of us out there that if linked in some manner aside from an internet forum would establish a foundation to assure our own continuity. It wouldn't hurt if that group was open to people at the amateur (hobby) and full scale commercial level as well in order to assure future growth and overall understanding between all the various functions. I know this is getting looked at but how to get people to understand we're all in the same boat just pulling different oars seems to be the hard part. What's important is that we all start pulling oars together to travel a path to a location instead of something aimless and meandering.

An aviation education will be a rather large part of what we get to do or not do as things move forward. Some things should require a full scale Commercial ticket, and some things should not, but everyone needs to be on the same page.

 

[SJBrit]

Here's the problem: there are too many people who think that knowing how to fly a plane/UAV/whatever actually makes you a pilot. It doesn't. When I got my PPL I soloed at less than 7 hours - that's the point when I could fly: take off, fly around, land - done, right? Then I spent the next 33 hours and countless more in ground school understanding airspace, navigation, safety, radio procedures, emergency procedures: the list goes on. I have absolutely no problem at all with a requirement that commercial UAV pilots go through formal training and certification. I don't think you should have to get a PPL - a lot of that stuff is simply not relevant for a UAV, and there's a lot of stuff relevant to a UAV that's not in the PPL training. The alternative is the wild west, and as someone who is also a passenger on commercial planes at least twice a week I care a great deal about aviation safety.

 

[Ronan]

In this we come to the division that can either make us or break us. Aviation knowledge does not have to include the ability to fly a full scale airplane. In this I agree. Although I hold a Commercial and Instructor ticket I don't see the need for people that fly very low level, short distance, and short duration to be required to have a full scale Pilot's license. However, I most certainly DO believe they should be well versed in aviation knowledge, be able to speak in aviation vernacular, meet the same medical standards as a full scale pilot flying for hire, be able to communicate on a two way radio with pilot's and ATC, read an aeronautical chart so they can stay the heck out of the way of full scale in those places they could end up going bump.

So no, a ful scale ticket should not be required but I see nothing at all wrong with a good ground school syllabus that gets everyone working on the same page. This is why better definition of who we are is critically important. Are we going to be blasting up to 5,000 to 20,000' to shoot pictures or survey farm fields? heck no, for the most part we;ll all be under 400' or so and well within a mile of ourselves. Our flight systems won't last long enough for us to take off and fly the mission and make it back to the launch location with 30 or 45 minutes of battery reserves. The concept is ludicrous. So we need better definition in order to generate rules and regulations that are applicable to the situation. We're going to have rules, like it or not, so far better that we make and present those rules than have someone completely out of touch with what we do and are do that for us.

There's a need for some type of association/organization similar to what Private Pilot's have to build our niche in the airspace by defining who and what we are, along with what we fly and do. It doesn't have to be some crazy totalitarian thing but there's a whole lot of us out there that if linked in some manner aside from an internet forum would establish a foundation to assure our own continuity. It wouldn't hurt if that group was open to people at the amateur (hobby) and full scale commercial level as well in order to assure future growth and overall understanding between all the various functions. I know this is getting looked at but how to get people to understand we're all in the same boat just pulling different oars seems to be the hard part. What's important is that we all start pulling oars together to travel a path instead of an aimless and meandering path.

An aviation education will be a rather large part of what we get to do or not do as things move forward. Some things should require a full scale Commercial ticket, and some things should not, but everyone needs to be on the same page.

I agree we should all be on the same page, so that horrid possible accident never happens.

Honestly i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, copy/paste what Europe/UK is doing and voila done. If it works for them, it certainty would for us too.

As for having proper knowledge, i agree, especially if someone wants to go for a 'higher license' that enables them to fly higher commercially.

 

[scotth]

For now, until some real regs are in place, the requirement of having a private ticket is a reasonable step, though I think a Sport Pilot license is more appropriate. I also think we are a ways away from any kind of licensing curriculum for civil drone operators. But isn't the point of this latest FAA move (politics aside) to develop a working set of guidelines for integration?

 

[kloner]

Ronan, That is certainly the attitude the FAA is weeding out so i wish the best of luck to you

Scott, yes sir, to gather data and statistics on this gear in a broad stroke to make a future set of rules

 

[Ronan]

For now, until some real regs are in place, the requirement of having a private ticket is a reasonable step, though I think a Sport Pilot license is more appropriate. I also think we are a ways away from any kind of licensing curriculum for civil drone operators. But isn't the point of this latest FAA move (politics aside) to develop a working set of guidelines for integration?

It is, which is why most people aren't putting any weight to the FAA's little theatrical outbursts (or purely media, who know's).

Ronan, That is certainly the attitude the FAA is weeding out so i wish the best of luck to you

Scott, yes sir, to gather data and statistics on this gear in a broad stroke to make a future set of rules

Interesting comment there kloner, i just believe that other countries have something that is working and the FAA should take a better look. I'm also 100% supportive in educating pilots in the way of aviation knowledge. As for requiring a full scale license, that's just stupid. I'm not flying a full scale plane or helicopter.

Don't forget, UAV in the form of planes have been in usage commercially for a long time (powerline survey's, pipeline survey's, etc). They don't require a full scale license.

 

[Old Man]

I believe our skies will see a great many "drones" of all shapes and sizes. The company I work for has already put more than 2000 of only one type in the air. Other large aerospace firms have produced similar, if not larger numbers and our airspace is large enough to have thousands airborne at the same time. Those operating craft such as ours will contribute a number very near equal to what the aerospace firms are proposing which does a couple things. One is we invade their market share and the second has us lacking the knowledge to safely interact with those operating under a standardized set of rules. It's quite conceivable someone with a multirotor will end up in a head on situation with a manned helicopter. Those that know will turn to the right to avoid a collision. Those that don't know and do something different will be the cause of the mid air. Competency is not limited to how well one flies their multirotor or how well they frame a scene. Competency is all encompassing with the numerous areas one could interact with on a moment's notice.

 

[kloner]

amen

 

[SJBrit]

There's something else to consider when understanding how the FAA (and other government agencies) regulate - they are very much in tune with commercial interests. I've been up against the FAA, GPS Industry Council and others when lobbying for changes to FCC radio regulations. In all these cases there were frankly ridiculous "scientific arguments" against regulation change which seemed absurd until you realized that they were thin veneers on top of commercial protectionism. Don't expect the manned aviation community to let UAVs in on their turf without a fight, and they know exactly how to work with the FAA.

We in the UAV community have to get a lot more organized and a lot more sophisticated fast if we want any say in this process. Otherwise we'll continue to wring hands over the absurdities we hear without seeing the deeper truth about how regulation change actually happens.

 

[scotth]

What worries me are not the commercial operators who have invested the time and money into this. They take it seriously and already act responsibly or risk losing a significant investment, not to mention not being able to deliver the goods to a paying client, or letting down a whole cast and crew (and never getting hired again, btw). People that are not in the business don't understand that.

What does worry me are the mounting numbers of idiots who fly the smaller copters with complete disregard for airspace, safety, anything.

 

[scotth]

As for requiring a full scale license, that's just stupid. I'm not flying a full scale plane or helicopter.

The problem is there is presently no standard. With a full scale license, at least you are guaranteed to possess a practical understanding of airspace, airfield operations, procedures, etc. Is it overkill, sure, and ultimately I can't see it being required. But for now at least it is a standard. It also facilitates enforcement action against you.

 

[kloner]

I have so much regulation and stuff to loose i basically can't even go fly fpv on demand anymore, anytime, anywhere down whatever beach etc. Am i pissed about that, you bet, but i'll find another hobby. What is starting to happen is regulation of any kind and the industry has been after that for 14 years, i'm in 2 years commercial now and have been praying for something to start.....

 

[Ronan]

I believe our skies will see a great many "drones" of all shapes and sizes. The company I work for has already put more than 2000 of only one type in the air. Other large aerospace firms have produced similar, if not larger numbers and our airspace is large enough to have thousands airborne at the same time. Those operating craft such as ours will contribute a number very near equal to what the aerospace firms are proposing which does a couple things. One is we invade their market share and the second has us lacking the knowledge to safely interact with those operating under a standardized set of rules. It's quite conceivable someone with a multirotor will end up in a head on situation with a manned helicopter. Those that know will turn to the right to avoid a collision. Those that don't know and do something different will be the cause of the mid air. Competency is not limited to how well one flies their multirotor or how well they frame a scene. Competency is all encompassing with the numerous areas one could interact with on a moment's notice.

Granted it's a fast growing market and should be regulated, especially in educating people. I'm just far from convinced about requiring full licenses for flying small UAV's, it makes poor sense, especially economically.

Safety is #1, so of course w/e is best for that, we will all follow!

The problem is there is presently no standard. With a full scale license, at least you are guaranteed to possess a practical understanding of airspace, airfield operations, procedures, etc. Is it overkill, sure, and ultimately I can't see it being required. But for now at least it is a standard. It also facilitates enforcement action against you.

Agreed, but if people go that way, spend thousands and countless hours just to have it changed a few months or a year after to something easy and cheap to get... well that's borderline scamming...

 

[kloner]

try 2-3 years for full integration, i plan being retired by then

 

[Ronan]

try 2-3 years for full integration, i plan being retired by then

Congrats bud, but i'm just starting and i got a family to support

You retiring early? Cuz on your vids you don't look old... or you got that young-gene going? lol

 

[Old Man]

Seems my earlier points were missed by some. A full scale license really isn't needed, but an education of the full scale system is. That could be accomplished by a new classification of people known as "operators" not pilots. With their feet on the ground they are not, IMO, pilots. I am both a pilot and an operator because I have a full scale license, and operate unmanned and radio controlled aerial vehicles. Add another new classification for type of aircraft and their known limitations that further separates us from manned aviation. Take the Pilot's license away and we become an operators.

Operators, if classified as such, could attend an in depth ground school where they could learn about airspace, regulations, charts, pilot responsibilities, communications, air traffic control, and standard emergency procedures. After graduating via a written and oral testing process they could be awarded a UAV or sUAS operators certificate that bears considerable responsibility and recurrent training to keep. Those classes would be taught by full scale ground instructors which serves multiple purposes. Full scale gains the benefit of interacting with sUAS in a one on one environment, helping them gain a better understanding of what we do, full scale gains some level of employment in a facet of manned aviation that has been dying for quite some time, and we gain knowledge that will be critical for our aircraft and trades to be accepted.

People flying any type of aircraft should be responsible to understand the systems that keep them in the air. They should be responsible for periodic maintenance and have a means of assuring the safety of persons on the ground and in the air should a system failure occur where positive control of the aircraft is lost. Simply land automatically if link is lost, GPS failure occurs, or a failsafe is violated for any reason. You don't have to be a full scale Pilot for any of that, but you do need to be fully cognizant of all the systems in use, and how all that you are involved in can impact others and what they are doing.

There will be equipment requirements for operating in certain environments. Navigation lights will be a start. Other equipment, more specialized and expensive, will be required in specialized airspace. Just because what we fly is small does not mean it's not just as lethal as something larger. The little airplane, big sky principle doesn't work. There have been several collisions between manned and unmanned aviation already using that concept, and only luck has kept those incidents without fatalities. near misses have been far more numerous than people know but reporting has not occurred because most all of this stuff has happened in war zones. Many may not realize that Iraq and Afghanistan have been the proving grounds for integration of manned and unmanned aviation in common airspace, and it has been happening at airfields with operational tempos higher than Atlanta or Chicago-O'Hare.

Manned aviation has been around quite awhile now. As sUAS operators we are the new kids on the block and the rules were established long before we got here. Best we can hope for is a modification of some existing regs and additions of some specialized ones that will allow us to participate. To think we should be absolved of any regulatory participation or special exemption because we fly low and slow with smaller aircraft is ludicrous and demonstrates the lack of seriousness too many have with what we do.

The hobbyists are the ones that have generated a lot of negative publicity, but also the reason we are able to do what we do. How we address their transgressions with education and training will also provide greater acceptance of us with governmental groups and full scale aviation. We have an opportunity to do something great if we but put a few small things aside and take a longer view than just what each of us wants individually. The question is, do we want to come together and do something positive or sit back and one to one complain about what we don't want or like? We have the option to do either but one will get us to someplace we want to go while the other only further isolates us from what we want and love to do.

 

[Ronan]

Seems my earlier points were missed by some. A full scale license really isn't needed, but an education of the full scale system is. That could be accomplished by a new classification of people known as "operators" not pilots. With their feet on the ground they are not, IMO, pilots. I am both a pilot and an operator because I have a full scale license, and operate unmanned and radio controlled aerial vehicles. Add another new classification for type of aircraft and their known limitations that further separates us from manned aviation. Take the Pilot's license away and we become an operators.

Operators, if classified as such, could attend an in depth ground school where they could learn about airspace, regulations, charts, pilot responsibilities, communications, air traffic control, and standard emergency procedures. After graduating via a written and oral testing process they could be awarded a UAV or sUAS operators certificate that bears considerable responsibility and recurrent training to keep. Those classes would be taught by full scale ground instructors which serves multiple purposes. Full scale gains the benefit of interacting with sUAS in a one on one environment, helping them gain a better understanding of what we do, full scale gains some level of employment in a facet of manned aviation that has been dying for quite some time, and we gain knowledge that will be critical for our aircraft and trades to be accepted.

People flying any type of aircraft should be responsible to understand the systems that keep them in the air. They should be responsible for periodic maintenance and have a means of assuring the safety of persons on the ground and in the air should a system failure occur where positive control of the aircraft is lost. Simply land automatically if link is lost, GPS failure occurs, or a failsafe is violated for any reason. You don't have to be a full scale Pilot for any of that, but you do need to be fully cognizant of all the systems in use, and how all that you are involved in can impact others and what they are doing.

There will be equipment requirements for operating in certain environments. Navigation lights will be a start. Other equipment, more specialized and expensive, will be required in specialized airspace. Just because what we fly is small does not mean it's not just as lethal as something larger. The little airplane, big sky principle doesn't work. There have been several collisions between manned and unmanned aviation already using that concept, and only luck has kept those incidents without fatalities. near misses have been far more numerous than people know but reporting has not occurred because most all of this stuff has happened in war zones. Many may not realize that Iraq and Afghanistan have been the proving grounds for integration of manned and unmanned aviation in common airspace, and it has been happening at airfields with operational tempos higher than Atlanta or Chicago-O'Hare.

Manned aviation has been around quite awhile now. As sUAS operators we are the new kids on the block and the rules were established long before we got here. Best we can hope for is a modification of some existing regs and additions of some specialized ones that will allow us to participate. To think we should be absolved of any regulatory participation or special exemption because we fly low and slow with smaller aircraft is ludicrous and demonstrates the lack of seriousness too many have with what we do.

The hobbyists are the ones that have generated a lot of negative publicity, but also the reason we are able to do what we do. How we address their transgressions with education and training will also provide greater acceptance of us with governmental groups and full scale aviation. We have an opportunity to do something great if we but put a few small things aside and take a longer view than just what each of us wants individually. The question is, do we want to come together and do something positive or sit back and one to one complain about what we don't want or like? We have the option to do either but one will get us to someplace we want to go while the other only further isolates us from what we want and love to do.

Sounds good to me but seems vastly overkill compared to what's already in place in other first world countries. Kinda like hunting squirrels with a 50 cal... yes it works but damn...

Interestingly my jacket say's operator and not pilot

Edit: I really hope that there is more than 1 category for UAV's if they go this way. For example, 95% of my work is around 100-200 feet, with no people under me EVER, in a closed/restricted area.
I'm sure other's will fly at 50 feet but with people around, like for marketing companies like the guy in Las Vegas... he should have a different license.
Then we got the high fliers.... 1000 feet and above... those guys should have something to let airplanes/helicopters know they are there and possibly in the way or something... (i think that's VERY important!!!)
Then we got a closed up area for filming, or simply filming landscapes for movies... again, very different requirements.

 

[Old Man]

Yup

 

[kloner]

I'm 46 years old.... I do too and so deep in debt making this company get to where it is financially. i have a 3 year old, 5 year old and wife that's supported me the last 14 years while recovering from getting knocked out of work from getting ran over on a motorcycle. This is my first job since may 2nd 2000.... I'm a red head, we don't show age very well, i had smoked cigarettes till 8 years ago, i got carded every time i'd try to buy em.... I started flying RC back in 1993, been going at it with multis the last 4 and pro the last 2, didn't get a paycheck till last month, before that it was a self funded indeavor almost to divorce and foreclosure. I wouldn't recomend this business to anyone that's not ready to give it all they got

Congrats bud, but i'm just starting and i got a family to support

You retiring early? Cuz on your vids you don't look old... or you got that young-gene going? lol

again, an operator is also the language they use in full scale operations and is responsible for the operations of the aircraft and is responsible for the aircraft

Interestingly my jacket say's operator and not pilot

 

[scotth]

I wouldn't recomend this business to anyone that's not ready to give it all they got

I thought this guy put it very well...
http://www.aerialvideotoronto.com/2014/06/the-equipment-battle-with-uav-drone.html ... and...
http://www.aerialvideotoronto.com/2013/11/starting-uav-aerial-photography-aerial.html

"We spend nearly $10K per year just in replacing batteries."