CineStar 6 WKM build

GGoodrum

Member
I'd wait until Ken has had a chance to run this ground, so to speak. I think there is a right combo that will still work great for a larger hex or octa setup. My guess is that it will be a lightweight prop in the 11-12" size and spinning maybe a bit faster. My first cut at a setup for my CS6 will be to try the QC-3328 motors on 5s, if I can find a suitable controller, and then maybe the Graupner 11x5 props, since I have some here already. This, of course could change in an instant, if and when Ken comes up with a better combo.

-- Gary
 

BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
GGoodurm dont wast the money on the QCs get the Torx or what ever they are called from Geoff same motors both from RC tiger !

Probably Geoffs are even better and a different prodcution line. I had some issues with the shrink tubing at the motors case, not a gib one but why should I be fixing that for a motor arround 100 $, that costs 25 30 $ probably less from rctiger !
 
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GGoodrum

Member
GGoodurm dont wast the money on the QCs get the Torx or what ever they are called from Geoff same motors both from RC tiger !

Probably Geoffs are even better and a different prodcution line. I had some issues with the shrink tubing at the motors case, not a gib one but why should I be fixing that for a motor arround 100 $, that costs 25 30 $ probably less from rctiger !

Yes, I'm looking for other "channels" into the manufacturer. I was also looking at trying to get a Hyperion Zs3014 with a kV around 700, but that may or may not happen. The big problem I'm still having is finding an ESC that will even do 5s, other than the Herkules II setup, like yours.

-- Gary
 


RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
I'd wait until Ken has had a chance to run this ground, so to speak. I think there is a right combo that will still work great for a larger hex or octa setup. My guess is that it will be a lightweight prop in the 11-12" size and spinning maybe a bit faster. My first cut at a setup for my CS6 will be to try the QC-3328 motors on 5s, if I can find a suitable controller, and then maybe the Graupner 11x5 props, since I have some here already. This, of course could change in an instant, if and when Ken comes up with a better combo.

-- Gary

You would be right about the prop size. I've managed to spend some time today getting a baseline setup working and no big surprise its not all that different than what I had setup for the Y6. Basic gains are a bit higher, ATTI gains a bit lower, props are Graupner 11 x 5. Late this afternoon I bolted the AV130 on and got that working, did the first test flight with a GoPro and found I had to tweak the settings a tiny bit, naturally the CG got lower with mass hanging under the frame so that was the main thing that needed attention. Second test looked better, so then it was time for a quick flight in the front yard with the Nex 5N which I managed to do just as it was getting dark. It was a bit breezy during most of the day, bad for trying to get video, good for trying to get a setup dialed in. It was still blowing a little when I did the 5N flight, not many leaves left on the trees but the wind is visible in a few places in the video.

A couple things I've found, the CS6 is BIG and trying to fly it around in the yard with all the obstacles both ground based and overhead is a bit challenging, a different league than tossing my little WKM quad around out there, you won't be seeing any 360 degree spins at eye level with this one! It flys smooth and steady, I'll have to recalibrate my reactions to fly it well, plus it's barely 40 degrees here today so fingers a bit cold and stiff as well. The camera gimbal isolation mounting system is amazing, I have NEVER seen video this steady from any of my multis right out of the camera before!!


I'm hoping the weather is decent over the weekend and I can get out to someplace big enough to actually fly the CS with the 5N onboard. Still have some tuning to do on the gain settings but I think for only having flown this one a few times it looks good, took me weeks to get it just close to this on the old frame!

Ken
 
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Dixter

Member
Ken, That looked pretty solid.. looks like your getting real close... is that all in ATTI mode.... how do you like the landing gear on the CS... not that its bad, it just "LOOKS" a little fragile... so far how do you feel about the CS pancake style vs the coaxial Y6 hexa feel???

Do you see any difference in stability... and how many rings are you using on the camera gimbal isolation mounting system

Later, thanks for the share
Dixter
 
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Nice Ken!

Looks like you are getting it dialed in nicely. Glad you like the vibration isolation system! I think you will find balancing props is a chore you don't need to worry about anymore ;)

Tabb
 

Gunter

Draganflyer X4
Ken / Gunter you seen these.. VERY similar to Graupners in shape but they do the bigger sizes.. they are also very strong

Dave http://www.electricwingman.com/apc/thin-electric.aspx

Dave, now you tell me! I might have to try some of those as well. I ordered some of these 12x4.5's from EWM which should arrive tomorrow...roll on Saturday afternoon!

Gunter for sure its worth a try. I experienced the same as KEN. The smaller and lighter the props the more stable the WKM gets. Even the 11 gram 12 x 3.8 CF props compared to the 12 3.8 APC made a difference that was noticeable.

Boris

Cheers Boris, I will make a video tomorrow/Sunday when I get everything dialled in to see what it's like.

but it is a pain packing it in the back of my car.

Tell me about it! I have to fold the rear bench seat down to fit it in the boot, and that's only after struggling to get it out of the workshop!


Ken, you've pretty much got it cracked now, video is looking superb. I hope I get similar results this weekend, but my GoPro is hard bolted to the undercarriage so not much chance of that!

Gunter.
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
My favorite part is how the neighbor just walks across the street as though he has seen this a thousand times. :)

Looks good. I really think the Sony Nex5n's image stabilization helps as well.
 


RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Ken, That looked pretty solid.. looks like your getting real close... is that all in ATTI mode.... how do you like the landing gear on the CS... not that its bad, it just "LOOKS" a little fragile... so far how do you feel about the CS pancake style vs the coaxial Y6 hexa feel???

Do you see any difference in stability... and how many rings are you using on the camera gimbal isolation mounting system
Later, thanks for the share
Dixter

Mostly ATTI mode, some in GPS mode where I went vertical with it and then came back down. The L/G might look fragile but far from it, it's quite solid, the whole frame is. I'm more used to the normal hex layout than I am the Y6, the WKM was my first experience with the Y layout. I did build an X8 coax using a Hoverfly Pro board but it didn't fly well which I'm sure was the controller more than the frame. It will take a bit before I get used to the size of the CS but it doesn't fly that much different than the Y6 did although I do think the standard hex is a bit more stable platform overall.

Right now I have 4 rings in the Iso's, it's starting to get cold here and rubber does funny things at low temps so the less used the better for now, plus I don't have a lot of weight hanging off them right now either, AV130 and Nex 5N don't amount to a lot of payload for a setup like this.



Nice Ken!
Looks like you are getting it dialed in nicely. Glad you like the vibration isolation system! I think you will find balancing props is a chore you don't need to worry about anymore ;)
Tabb

Tabb, it's quite a machine you've put together, I don't know that I'm going to want to fly the Droidworx frame MK anymore after having this one in the air! That's the thing I like most about Graupner props they come already balanced so it just makes things that much smoother but even with the GoPro under the CS there wasn't even a hint of rolling shutter, nothing, and that I've never seen in all the time I've been flying them, there's always been at least a little bit here and there...


Ken, you've pretty much got it cracked now, video is looking superb. I hope I get similar results this weekend, but my GoPro is hard bolted to the undercarriage so not much chance of that!
Gunter.

If there isn't much wind you should get pretty decent video even hard mounted, just setup a flight mode with about 40% expo and be as smooth as you can on the sticks. I think you'll be surprised at how good of a job a GoPro can do without a mount.

My favorite part is how the neighbor just walks across the street as though he has seen this a thousand times. :)
Looks good. I really think the Sony Nex5n's image stabilization helps as well.

Ted is quite used to seeing all manner of flying things buzzing around my house. Just before he crossed the street we were joking that I had found a new way to get rid of the leaves in my yard, just fly around until they've all blown away! I think he's secretly happy that I've given up tuning nitro powered helis in the backyard in favor of electric motors ;)


Wow, that is smooth. Any hit of wobbling in the wind?
-- Gary

It will still wobble in the wind just like the Y6 did, if you don't try to force it to sit perfectly still it's not bad. In GPS mode it still gets twitchy when the wind hits maybe a bit more than the Y6 did. I'm not sure how much of it is going to be able to be gotten rid of by adjusting the gains, the controller really isn't optimized for a frame of this size so unless they do more with the firmware it's close to as good as it's going to get. One thing I want to try is adding some weight in the wind to see what effect that has, if my thinking on how the WKM works is correct it should get smoother with additional weight and maybe some slight gain changes as well. I'll have to make some small ballast plates that I can add in various places to try it out, there's some steel stock out in the garage I can mill to size once I decide how I'm going to do it.

I did get a couple flights in early in the day before the wind came up and it's rock solid in calm air, I think the WKM will do well on this frame in the right conditions but it will never be perfect in all conditions, not sure any flight controller could.

Ken

P.S. if I were going to do this build again I think I'd go with some higher KV motors as long as there are no plans to carry anything heavier than the 5N, I think smaller props spinning faster would help the stability in windy conditions. One thing I may try is changing the firmware on the ESCs to something a little more multirotor friendly and see what that does.
 
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BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
Tabb, it's quite a machine you've put together, I don't know that I'm going to want to fly the Droidworx frame MK anymore after having this one in the air!

I can only second that. The frame really makes sense and has a simple minimalistic approach the way it should be !
 

llbr22

Member
Ken, great work on this!

Mind if I ask, what are your IMU and GPS XYZ mounting positions? I'm finding that changing those settings are improving my steadiness along with the gain. Next (thanks to your thread) I'm going to change my APC's for graupners :)

Thanks!
Lloyd
 

... the CS6 is BIG and trying to fly it around in the yard with all the obstacles both ground based and overhead is a bit challenging ...

Really enjoyed that video, Ken. You're not kidding about the obstacles there! That's a heck of a combo of trees and wires.

IrisAerial said:
My favorite part is how the neighbor just walks across the street as though he has seen this a thousand times. :)

Man that's funny- I was thinking the same exact thing!

BorisS said:
I can only second that. The frame really makes sense and has a simple minimalistic approach the way it should be !

Yeah, the whole thing is really well done. These CS birds are professional platforms.

nick
 

Gunter

Draganflyer X4
Well, I can safely say that the smaller props do make a huge difference. I fitted the 12x4.5's today, upgraded to the latest firmware and started from scratch with the gain settings. I was gobsmacked that at 100% on all settings, it was almost perfect!

Now up to 150% on pitch and roll and it's just about rock solid on hover. I would just like to know how to go about setting it up so that it reacts slower to stick input, just to make changes in direction / speed a lot smoother.

I might try some 11" props as well, just to see if it gets better!

Gunter.
 

GGoodrum

Member
if I were going to do this build again I think I'd go with some higher KV motors as long as there are no plans to carry anything heavier than the 5N, I think smaller props spinning faster would help the stability in windy conditions. One thing I may try is changing the firmware on the ESCs to something a little more multirotor friendly and see what that does.

Instead of higher kV, why not higher voltage, like 5s? I'm pretty well convinced now that I'm going to use basically the same size/kV motors, with my 11x5 Graupners, and run them on 5s. Also, instead of ballast, you could use more/larger batteries. :) I'm thinking of a couple of 5s-8000s will do the trick. :02.47-tranquillity:

Also, with this isolation system, and with a proper mount, that has fast servos, and with the gimbal output gains really dialed in, I really don't care what the platform is doing. It can wobble all it wants. There was absolutely zero indication of any sort of wobbling in the video, so I was quite surprised that you mentioned that there still is a bit.

-- Gary
 

BorisS

Drone Enthusiast
I will be able to tell you guys more tomorrow. I have the 6s setup and 12 x 3.8 11 grams CFK ready for tomorrow. Did a short test with the 12 x 3.8 in the apartment letting it stay in its ground effect and there is like expected a huge difference to the 14 x 4 !
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
Ken, which lens on the NEX5?

That was with the 18 - 55 lens that came with the 5N, I also have the 18mm wide angle. I wanted the bigger lens on there for its added weight, the CG is too high with a pair of 4S packs sitting up top, the WKM has an easier time with a low CG.

Ken, great work on this!

Mind if I ask, what are your IMU and GPS XYZ mounting positions? I'm finding that changing those settings are improving my steadiness along with the gain. Next (thanks to your thread) I'm going to change my APC's for graupners :)

Thanks!
Lloyd

The IMU is centered so x and y are both 0, the Z axis I think is about -4 at the moment but that really depends on each individual frame and where the majority of weight is. Besides gain the position settings are the next most important setting to get right. If you can land in ATTI mode and see no wobble as it gets within a foot or two of the ground you're really close on the position settings. If they're off there will be very noticeable wobble as it hits heavy ground effect when landing.

Well, I can safely say that the smaller props do make a huge difference. I fitted the 12x4.5's today, upgraded to the latest firmware and started from scratch with the gain settings. I was gobsmacked that at 100% on all settings, it was almost perfect!

Now up to 150% on pitch and roll and it's just about rock solid on hover. I would just like to know how to go about setting it up so that it reacts slower to stick input, just to make changes in direction / speed a lot smoother.

I might try some 11" props as well, just to see if it gets better!
Gunter.

To slow down the reactions to stick inputs use 30 to 40% expo on the pitch and roll axis. I have three flight modes setup on a TX switch with varying degrees of expo and travel so I can change the degree of response I get "on the fly" ;)

Instead of higher kV, why not higher voltage, like 5s? I'm pretty well convinced now that I'm going to use basically the same size/kV motors, with my 11x5 Graupners, and run them on 5s. Also, instead of ballast, you could use more/larger batteries. :) I'm thinking of a couple of 5s-8000s will do the trick. :02.47-tranquillity:
Also, with this isolation system, and with a proper mount, that has fast servos, and with the gimbal output gains really dialed in, I really don't care what the platform is doing. It can wobble all it wants. There was absolutely zero indication of any sort of wobbling in the video, so I was quite surprised that you mentioned that there still is a bit.
-- Gary

That's what I'll wind up doing with this one because I already have the motors, if it were a completely new build where I had to buy motors I'd go with the higher KV and use the batteries I already have. I do plan to change the ESC firmware to remove the throttle filter and get them working at 16 kHZ instead of the standard 8, that should smooth things out nicely by allowing the ESC to react to faster to commands from the WKM.

I meant there's still a bit of wobble in the frame, if you had seen what it was doing compared to what appears in the video there's a substantial difference, the AV130 is definitely doing its job perfectly. On the other forum you mentioned "Ken, I see the same sort of "twitch" at the very end of your video, when it is on the ground, just before the video cuts off." I watched the video on my big screen monitor here and now I know what you're talking about, the twitch you see at the end is me bumping the AV130 while trying to push the record button on the 5N to stop the video, this one has absolutely zero twitch or drift for whatever reason. The other WKM I have is the opposite it wobbles and weaves like it's drunk whe sitting on the ground and fully powered up, seems to settle down once it's in the air. I do see subtle differences between the two controllers, the GPS on the second one seems to work better than the first, the gimbal stabilization works better on the first than on the second, both are running the same version of the firmware. No explanation and I doubt that DJI would have one either.

Ken
 

GGoodrum

Member
I think the reason you don't seem to see the twitch is because of the large reduction the AV-130 has, in both pitch and roll, and because they are belt drives. I also tried it on my reworked mkTR mount, and it is much less noticeable, but it is still there. This has a lot less reduction in the roll axis than your AV130. On my little direct drive mount, the effect is really amplified. I played with my programmer this morning, and and got the electrical and mechanical neutral points to match up, and again widened the dead band setting to the widest value. This has smoothed out the operation at the neutral spot (I was getting a slight buzzing/vibration before, in the roll axis...) and now this is quiet and rock solid, until the drift starts up. BTW, one thing I've noticed is that the drift doesn't really start up until the flashing LED goes from flashing three times, to flashing twice, or once. Weird, but it definitely points to the fact that the outputs are definitely drifting, because before the GPS starts finding satellites, everything is rock solid, and there's no drifting going on. This doesn't seem to matter whether it is in Manual, ATTI or GPS mode.

One of the reasons I bought the Maytech 30A ESCs for my X8 is because it has a setting for 16kHz. That and that it is already programmed for 400Hz. I wish they had a version of these that does 5s or 6s. I think I'm going to go with the Turnigy Plush 40A that Boris suggested. They will work up to 6s.

-- Gary
 

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