brushless gimbals and wind.....question

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I've still not converted from servo based gimbals and have a few questions. From what I gather, brushless gimbals are very sensitive to being extremely well balanced. I asked the question of why you couldn't just use larger motors. I was told that it just didnt work that way and the gimbal would start twitching if you took that approach. So if the gimbals are that sensitive to balance then how the hell do they work when you start moving 30 mph into the wind? Seems that the systems are so sensitive that being overpowered or having too much "P" will just make the thing shake instead of add extra torque. Is this info wrong? Clearly some of you are getting pretty good results flying around at mach 5. I will add that one thing I never liked about the av series gimbals, primarily the legs, is that they added a lot of sail area to the craft. Hovering or slow flight in no wind is fine but when you need to get a shot in 15+ mph all that extra area becomes a factor. I do like how the servo systems allow you to have an abundance of torque which makes for less critical balancing. What do you do when you have a camera with the battery door on the bottom! Do you need to spend an hour re-tuning everything??
 


gtranquilla

RadioActive
More robust BGCs are needed to drive the larger axis motors as required for the heavier cameras as in the case of Alexmos offerings and most others (not sure about Martinez).
In addition to PID loop control for each axis there is another parameter that helps to regulate the amount of motor torque allowed. Many will tweak the wrong parameter here.....
If set too low, control is lost and the full motor torque is not enabled to overcome camera rotational momentum and/or external factors such as wind.
If set too high, there will be a higher frequency motor jitter that you obviously do not want to appear in your videos.

IMHO - the down side of BGC is the excessive motor weight relative to the much lighter servo control gimbals.
Unfortunately BGC motors cannot be geared to increase axis output torque.... hence so much heavier.
But if one wants to implement servo gimbal control to one of the 3 axes,,,, it belongs on the panning axis.

I've still not converted from servo based gimbals and have a few questions. From what I gather, brushless gimbals are very sensitive to being extremely well balanced. I asked the question of why you couldn't just use larger motors. I was told that it just didnt work that way and the gimbal would start twitching if you took that approach. So if the gimbals are that sensitive to balance then how the hell do they work when you start moving 30 mph into the wind? Seems that the systems are so sensitive that being overpowered or having too much "P" will just make the thing shake instead of add extra torque. Is this info wrong? Clearly some of you are getting pretty good results flying around at mach 5. I will add that one thing I never liked about the av series gimbals, primarily the legs, is that they added a lot of sail area to the craft. Hovering or slow flight in no wind is fine but when you need to get a shot in 15+ mph all that extra area becomes a factor. I do like how the servo systems allow you to have an abundance of torque which makes for less critical balancing. What do you do when you have a camera with the battery door on the bottom! Do you need to spend an hour re-tuning everything??
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I've seen belt drives on brushless conversions, like for the AV series. Why does that not work? Thanks for the feedback. All interesting stuff.
 

jes1111

Active Member
I've seen belt drives on brushless conversions, like for the AV series. Why does that not work?
Because belt drive has backlash in the same way that gears do. A few specific designs of timing belts claim "low backlash" but it's still there. Plus you can add hysteresis - the effect of slight elasticity in the belt material. It's also difficult to achieve high reduction ratios with belt drive - the tooth count is low compared to gears of the same diameter.

Getting past the weight/torque issues of DD will not be easy. Right now anybody with a CNC can knock up a half-decent DD gimbal but little thought seems to be going into the engineering of a truly viable solution.
 

kloner

Aerial DP
here is a 2 belt driven out of three axis bgc with zero post stab going for a ride with me at the helm...

 
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DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
When you get your BG perfectly tuned for a calm day and then go fly on a windy day, does the gimbal still do a decent job getting rid of all the jolts the gusts give the flight controller? Unless flying in manual mode, and even then, these helis just dont like more than 10 mph of wind. Flying in wind and getting million $ shots like what Kloner just posted are 2 different things.
 

jes1111

Active Member
As lovely as the scenery is in Kloner's video, there is evidence of "unwanted movement" - for example at 3.40 onwards, look carefully at the top left corner - there's a little vertical "dip" just as the horizon touches the top of the frame. Also some nasty shaking in the last few seconds but I don't know if that's the stabilization or the gimbal mount itself moving.

Nobody is saying that RC servos are obsolete or that belt drive on BLDC is invalid - just that they can't/don't provide the end results that a direct drive system can. Close, sure, but not the same.

As to IrisAerial's question, wind is certainly a factor. Any imbalance will be exploited by the wind since the "centre of pressure" is unlikely to be coincident with the centre of gravity (which, through balancing, should be the same as the centre of rotation). Wind pressure will therefore act just like imbalance of the load, requiring the motors to "do work" to hold position. How well they can do that depends on the reserve of torque available and that depends not only on the motor specs but also the particular tuning setup (especially the "gain").

As with any actuator system, the ideal is to have a substantial reserve of "power" available. Playing "near the limit" yields problems. This is directly analogous to the motors/props on the craft - we want to hover at around 50% throttle so that we've got plenty of "control bandwidth" available (above and below that figure). An underpowered craft that requires, say, 80% throttle to hover runs out of puff if a sudden input of 25% throttle increase is demanded. In the same way a direct drive gimbal, which is operating "near the limit", can have insufficient reserve available to respond to a disturbance.

This is why IMO the AV200IDD approach should prove more successful since, through gearing, it will have more torque in reserve (together with some other factors) and will be more forgiving on the tuning. However, their gearing system has a "compliance" (a rubber interface between the driving wheel and the driven wheel) which will rob some of that advantage.

So, no "revolution" yet - just a step in the right direction - but we've still got some way to go. Right now balance and tuning are critical - IMO the best choices in the current crop are those gimbals which provide "micro-adjustment" of the balance (like the Halo gimbals). See also the purely mechanical hand-held "gimbal" from FlowCine - check out the micro-adjustment system available there. Unfortunately engineering on this level costs money!
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
The very best 2 axis actuator systems are being used for Astronomical telescopes for GoTo and tracking with tremendous precision such as the following:
http://www.bisque.com/sc/pages/ParamountMX.aspx
This technology originally developed for heavier scope has migrated down in size and weight.
But I think they all use stepper motors with lots of gearing still.
And weight is of no concern obviously.
Still there may be some concepts in their sw/fw and electronics that could migrate over into aerial videos on MRs.
 

Debian Dog

Old Heli Guy
Right now balance and tuning are critical

Truer word have never been spoken and it can be a bit of a nightmare. Balance is the "easy" part. It has been a long time since I have been this frustrated and I come from a programing and RC helicopter background. And I am sooooo close, but I am ready to pull my hair out. I do not wonder why people buy $3000 pre-configured gimbals any longer.
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Jes, thanks for the long response. I guess the wind question was related to my being told you couldn't over spec your motors. I wonder if it would help to make a shroud that makes your camera more aerodynamic. I've learned that every facet comes into play when wind is involved. And rarely is wind a constant force, which basically interprets into vibrations. So a Y6 with a Sony RX100 and a tiny gimbal will probably be a lot easier to dial in than a flat octo with a dslr and massive landing gear.
 

jes1111

Active Member
It would certainly help to shroud the entire gimbal so that wind pressure cannot act on any of the moving parts. You'd still have the problem of lateral accelerations exerting torque which needs to be balanced by the motors (which is why "smooth flying" is required).

You can over-spec your motors if the maximum torque available is never utilised, either because the mass and moments of inertia are not high enough to ever need the available torque (allowing for some margin) or because your tuning limits the torque to such an extent that a smaller motor would have sufficed.
 

kloner

Aerial DP
ok, but being a guy that sells aerial footage in the industry, i can tell you they are ecstatic at the level of stabilization and it is more than enough.

heres another look, the other day we ran so late on an emergency gig that i was setup to show up and fly 5d with glass, they opted for the gh3 last minute, put it on and the roll fell over, tilt was screwed, and my gimbal guy sent a replacement gimbal guy so we were screwed, or i thought. Keeping in mind it's alot of high speed with thermals this is the same thing, a red gimbal with 80mm dd and a gh3 way unbalanced,,,,, of the irony


again, more than enough to make the industry insiders stoked beyond belief.... they were flying a red on servo gimbal at 5000 feet, it overloaded and flew away, biggest yard sale i've ever seen,,,, took 5 people 4 hours to pick it all up. Garunteed his footage needed 20-50% but at 4k it's not a big deal to produce 1080p, warp is magical when the resolution stays strong....
 
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ovdt

Member
I have been using brushless gimbals for the last 6 months for filming. Going back to servo based CS gimbal for photo shooting since brushless gimbals are considerablly heavier than the servo based ones.

Perfect balancing and tuning is a must. There is no escape from it. I've converted CS 3-axis gimbal to brushless. The biggest problem for windy situations is the landing gear acting like a sail. What I can certainly say is, yes wind affects the brushless gimbal but if it affects my gimbal, it means it's also hard to fly the kopter for precise shots. For me the limit is right now around 17-20 knots. If it's more than this, I don't fly for filming.

The biggest pain for Alexmos is the 3rd axis. I'm moving to Carvec G-Lock system. It's much easier to tune and clean of weird bugs.

One example:

http://vimeo.com/87095524

This gimbal has 8017 on pan, 5108 on roll and tilt and easily carries 5D Mark III with 24mm prime lens.
 


kloner

Aerial DP
my partner works in the industry and says them shrouds you see the nice mil spec rigs fly are more than our rigs cost all together.... sure a shroud would be nice, so would an 100 million bucks but we cant have it all so we gotta work with what is viable monetarily and between alexmos boards, brushless motors and a decent tune on an airframe makes it all possible, so much more than a servo gimbal
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
dude, if there's a market for camer/gimbal shrouds I will go to IKEA and sell you guys a $2 flower pot for $100 no problem. :)
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Obst... Excellent work.
I will stick with 2axis BG to keep weight down and work with MR yaw for panning for the short term. If all goes as expected, when I really need panning BG axis the weight and size of the HD camera will come down. I can easily custom Mold a shroud using CF and my vacuum bagging system... Maybe someday!
 

Str8 Up

Member
The OP's question was in regards to flying in the wind. Where are the examples of this unstabilized? There is a ton of footage of great video in calm conditions out there now.
 


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