TBS Discovery & Naza // Vibrations, tweaks, gains and questions

[Jessestr]

Hello there

I just finished my alpha build of the TBS Discovery. I tried a quick flight with my FPV cam on it and it was really not even worth watching it. Like the camera is going up and down. So I have much questions for you guys.

For your information. Props are somewhat balanced. Not on the right way but it works for now. And It's not the first time I fly. Been flying for half a year as sport/aggressive quad flying.

• This is my first time using the Naza. Do you recommend any basic gains? (all 100% now)
• Do the gains influence the vibration etc?
• My TBS frame made a lot of noise when not doing all bolts in. But it still does makes noise but not as much with all screws and bolts in (like the centerplates that are vibrating)
• How come that the FPV cam next to the GoPro slot shouldn't get an anti-vibrate mat?
• Could it be that the front plates where the GoPro goes goes up and down in flight? Because the camera shots I have the cam is moving up and down.
• Planning on getting an FPV cam for the FPV cam slot because I have to much wires with the current setup. What do you advice me? 32x32mm
• Any tips to make the FPV image good? I'll worry about recorded image later. But it should be flyable in FPV ..

​Thanks !

 

[RTRyder]

Hello there

I just finished my alpha build of the TBS Discovery. I tried a quick flight with my FPV cam on it and it was really not even worth watching it. Like the camera is going up and down. So I have much questions for you guys.

For your information. Props are somewhat balanced. Not on the right way but it works for now. And It's not the first time I fly. Been flying for half a year as sport/aggressive quad flying.

• This is my first time using the Naza. Do you recommend any basic gains? (all 100% now)
• Do the gains influence the vibration etc?
• My TBS frame made a lot of noise when not doing all bolts in. But it still does makes noise but not as much with all screws and bolts in (like the centerplates that are vibrating)
• How come that the FPV cam next to the GoPro slot shouldn't get an anti-vibrate mat?
• Could it be that the front plates where the GoPro goes goes up and down in flight? Because the camera shots I have the cam is moving up and down.
• Planning on getting an FPV cam for the FPV cam slot because I have to much wires with the current setup. What do you advice me? 32x32mm
• Any tips to make the FPV image good? I'll worry about recorded image later. But it should be flyable in FPV ..

​Thanks !

The main difference between an FPV camera and the GoPro is the FPV cams are usually a CCD sensor which is a lot more tolerant of vibration so they usually don't need to be isolated from all vibration like the CMOS sensor in the GoPro does. On one of my quads I have a cheap CMOS FPV camera and it is prone to the jello effect just like a GoPro if I hard mount it to a frame so I usually stick it on with servo tape and that's good enough to make it useable.

The big problem I found with the camera plate on my Discovery was that it isn't a tight fit in the slots on the upper and lower frame plates, that alone is enough to cause an unstable view through the pilot camera. My solution was to CA the bottom of the plate into the tab, that elimated 85% of the movement but it still had play at the top. What I did then was cut a small shim from some clear hard plastic packaging material, the kind that blister packs on cardboard are made of, and stuff it into the gap between the camera plate and the slot in the frame plate. That was just the right thickness to fully stabilize the camera board without having to glue it to both plates which would have made disassembly for repair more difficult that it would need to be.

Another critical thing on the Discovery with a Naza is the center of gravity has to be correct, if it isn't it will pitch back and forth when flying in ATTI mode as the accelerometer tries to maintain level flight. I actually setup mine up with the CG biased frontwards a little as I like to have it want to stay slightly nose down and if you get it just right the Naza doesn't try to fight against the slightly forward CG as it's pretty much always moving in that direction.

If you're using DJI motors and props I've found them to be a big source of the vibration. I use Graupner props with the DJI motors and a 4S battery, just swapping from 10 inch to 9 inch props made a big difference in the vibration level, DJI props I won't use at all because I've personally watched too many of them break in flight. Graupner 10 inch props are a direct replacement on the DJI motors, the smaller props need to be reamed out to fit.

The gains will need to be dialed in for your particular setup but I have yet to fly a Naza on any frame that was happy with all the default settings, right now I have three of them flying, all with GPS and on FPV quads, one a TBS Discovery, a QAV500, and a stock F450 frame, each one of them has different setups on the gains, some radically different than the others. After making sure the props are well balanced what I'll do is find the basic pitch and roll gain settings that work the best without seeing high frequency oscillation when flying in ATTI mode in the wind. I'll set that as a fixed number in the Assistant software and save it to the Naza, then I setup the ATTI pitch and roll gains to be adjustable from the TX so I can change the sensitivity of the of the stabilization reactions while flying, I find I usually keep them down around 60% as I fly in ATTI mode 95% of the time.

So first thing I would do is either fully balance the props you have or get another set and balance them before installation, and at the same time make sure the camera plate is solidly mounted in the frame and I think you'll see a big difference.

Ken

 

[kloner]

he hit most of what you need to know. if you want to make your gopro jello free even the way the chopper is now, try the ear plugs laid out like this. This will make your gopro act like it's ccd and costs a few bucks. Press em flat and cut with scissors to make even length tips from the plugs, shorter the better, put one of two on the red posts going up, couple across the front of the top fram and 4-6 on the bottom plate

regarding the pilot camera mount, i'm using contact cement between the plates and it's solid and one. i can peel the glue and break the bond pretty easily. i use welders, it holds everything on my quad from esc's to the video antenna

a great little cam for the money is this one
http://www.securitycamera2000.com/p...VL-D%2dWDR-DNR-Mini-Board-Camera-DIY-FPV.html

The number one thing to do to change the way your image shows though is a set of Graupner props. Bar none without a doubt that cleans ya up fast. gothelirc.com has em in stock when looked the other day.

I've had naza in 3 flamewheels and 2 fpv frames, they have always carried over the same motors but i have repropped a couple times but my gains are almost always the same, 125-135 on top, 85-95 on the bottom

CG on choppers/quads is different than almost any aircraft in the planet for the fact they lean forward to fly forward. cg in forward flight is checked with the chopper tilted to as close the angle your looking to perfect. problem is to make it fly bitchen forward is tail heavy, medium ff little further forward and hovering around is in the middle. back does tend to make it pitchup when you back off fff, but too far forward doing the same said fff is super unstable. you decide on the flying style and adjust it to suit your needs. i like mine back, but not too far, bout half inch in front of the mark on the bottom

 

[Jessestr]

First of all.. I found out that one motor was broken. My right front motor started but did not go faster nor slower. I noticed when I was balancing motors... Even though it could fly with a half working motor. I replaced the motor since I had two spares. Flies really better and almost no jello. Well I have jello but the cam is just right on the frame with one rubber band..

And I don't use a GoPro, but a HoryzonHD V2

1. CCD/CMOS
Thanks for the information. Got that!

2. I don't really get the part. What do you mean with "CA"?

3. I made a cross between my motors and put my Naza right on the spot. If you look underneath the TBS Frame you can see that CG sign (the circle). Naza is more to the front. My CG is right in the middle, but I can change it with my battery.

4. I'm not using DJI motors & escs.
I have Suppo 2212/13 1000kV motors with 25A ESC's with RapidESC aka SimonK firmware on it. (Really I want nothing else anymore than those flashed esc's)
Might get 4S motors (900KV) and run them off a 4S with 8" graupner props

5. I found some gains on the internet that actually work very well for me to start with. Will tweak them of course.

Thanks for the help Ken!

The main difference between an FPV camera and the GoPro is the FPV cams are usually a CCD sensor which is a lot more tolerant of vibration so they usually don't need to be isolated from all vibration like the CMOS sensor in the GoPro does. On one of my quads I have a cheap CMOS FPV camera and it is prone to the jello effect just like a GoPro if I hard mount it to a frame so I usually stick it on with servo tape and that's good enough to make it useable.

The big problem I found with the camera plate on my Discovery was that it isn't a tight fit in the slots on the upper and lower frame plates, that alone is enough to cause an unstable view through the pilot camera. My solution was to CA the bottom of the plate into the tab, that elimated 85% of the movement but it still had play at the top. What I did then was cut a small shim from some clear hard plastic packaging material, the kind that blister packs on cardboard are made of, and stuff it into the gap between the camera plate and the slot in the frame plate. That was just the right thickness to fully stabilize the camera board without having to glue it to both plates which would have made disassembly for repair more difficult that it would need to be.

Another critical thing on the Discovery with a Naza is the center of gravity has to be correct, if it isn't it will pitch back and forth when flying in ATTI mode as the accelerometer tries to maintain level flight. I actually setup mine up with the CG biased frontwards a little as I like to have it want to stay slightly nose down and if you get it just right the Naza doesn't try to fight against the slightly forward CG as it's pretty much always moving in that direction.

If you're using DJI motors and props I've found them to be a big source of the vibration. I use Graupner props with the DJI motors and a 4S battery, just swapping from 10 inch to 9 inch props made a big difference in the vibration level, DJI props I won't use at all because I've personally watched too many of them break in flight. Graupner 10 inch props are a direct replacement on the DJI motors, the smaller props need to be reamed out to fit.

The gains will need to be dialed in for your particular setup but I have yet to fly a Naza on any frame that was happy with all the default settings, right now I have three of them flying, all with GPS and on FPV quads, one a TBS Discovery, a QAV500, and a stock F450 frame, each one of them has different setups on the gains, some radically different than the others. After making sure the props are well balanced what I'll do is find the basic pitch and roll gain settings that work the best without seeing high frequency oscillation when flying in ATTI mode in the wind. I'll set that as a fixed number in the Assistant software and save it to the Naza, then I setup the ATTI pitch and roll gains to be adjustable from the TX so I can change the sensitivity of the of the stabilization reactions while flying, I find I usually keep them down around 60% as I fly in ATTI mode 95% of the time.

So first thing I would do is either fully balance the props you have or get another set and balance them before installation, and at the same time make sure the camera plate is solidly mounted in the frame and I think you'll see a big difference.

Ken

 

[Jessestr]

1. Thanks for the earplug tip. I heard some rumors about a new anti-vibration mat for the TBS frame. Will check it out first, if it's too expensive. I'll do the earplug thing!

2. Could you show that mounting with the contact cement?
I'd like to keep my frame as clean as possible and I want to make sure everything is undo able without harming the frame.

3. Thanks for the cam. Would I get a WDR / Pixim one instead or should I be fine with that cam?

4. Thanks. For the graupner tip again! Don't know if I should get them already since I might switch from motor setup.. 4S 900KV with 8" props. Running 3S 1000KV with 9" now and it would be better with 8" I think? Would be an expensive joke if I used those 9" props only once.

Thanks Kloner!

Uploading video before and after motor fix.

he hit most of what you need to know. if you want to make your gopro jello free even the way the chopper is now, try the ear plugs laid out like this. This will make your gopro act like it's ccd and costs a few bucks. Press em flat and cut with scissors to make even length tips from the plugs, shorter the better, put one of two on the red posts going up, couple across the front of the top fram and 4-6 on the bottom plate

regarding the pilot camera mount, i'm using contact cement between the plates and it's solid and one. i can peel the glue and break the bond pretty easily. i use welders, it holds everything on my quad from esc's to the video antenna

a great little cam for the money is this one
http://www.securitycamera2000.com/p...0TVL-D-WDR-DNR-Mini-Board-Camera-DIY-FPV.html

The number one thing to do to change the way your image shows though is a set of Graupner props. Bar none without a doubt that cleans ya up fast. gothelirc.com has em in stock when looked the other day.

I've had naza in 3 flamewheels and 2 fpv frames, they have always carried over the same motors but i have repropped a couple times but my gains are almost always the same, 125-135 on top, 85-95 on the bottom

CG on choppers/quads is different than almost any aircraft in the planet for the fact they lean forward to fly forward. cg in forward flight is checked with the chopper tilted to as close the angle your looking to perfect. problem is to make it fly bitchen forward is tail heavy, medium ff little further forward and hovering around is in the middle. back does tend to make it pitchup when you back off fff, but too far forward doing the same said fff is super unstable. you decide on the flying style and adjust it to suit your needs. i like mine back, but not too far, bout half inch in front of the mark on the bottom

 

[Jessestr]

Before motor is fixed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMuwElikUxY

After motor is fixed

 

[kloner]

the antivibration mat from antivibration mounts looks like this, costs $105 but does 2 frames. earplug gig is $5, both work the same

heres my rig, everything on there is welders brand contact cement, always has been. has never "failed" and it rubs right off, alot easier than hot glue

this is a video made with the green antivibration mat, aka "money"

this is from the earplug mat

Those are all raw unstabilized from the gopro..... From those videos above, your a set of graupners away from barely jello, but still here and there in particular stressing it like going up or down or FFF. that's where the mat or earplugs come in

i use this stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Count-Welder-...F8&qid=1344040587&sr=8-1&keywords=welder+glue
it's at home depot, i got on it cause that's the glue for epp planks....... works great for stickin stuff. esc's i put a zip tie where i want it and put a dab in from the top inside the arm, remove tie in the morning. When you goto remove it, just twist the part and it shears the glue pretty easily. looks clean.

 

[Jessestr]

$105.. That's some expensive mat.. I'd like to go with the earplugs and paint them black.

Will check out the contact cement in my home depot. Hope they have it there, looks actually very neat for mounting. Could use it in my groundstation too hehe.

Some good balanced graupners might to the trick yeah. But that leads me to my final step in building my TBS. Other motors or not?
I'm using as mentioned a Suppo 2212/13 1000KV motor with 9" GemFan props on a 3S with RapidESC (SimonK Firmware)

Gives me this (one motor)
View attachment 5518

They give much thrust, no doubt. But would a 4S improve my FPV quad? Like getting some 900KV 2216 motors with 8" Graupners and a 4S Battery.

I don't want to buy a 9" set graupners for a 3S setup and a 8" set graupners for a 4S setup.. Waste of money in my opinion.

Really, thanks for all the help on this forum. You guys are really helping me out, big big thanks!

the antivibration mat from antivibration mounts looks like this, costs $105 but does 2 frames. earplug gig is $5, both work the same

heres my rig, everything on there is welders brand contact cement, always has been. has never "failed" and it rubs right off, alot easier than hot glue

Those are all raw unstabilized from the gopro..... From those videos above, your a set of graupners away from barely jello, but still here and there in particular stressing it like going up or down or FFF. that's where the mat or earplugs come in

i use this stuff
http://www.amazon.com/Count-Welder-...F8&qid=1344040587&sr=8-1&keywords=welder+glue
it's at home depot, i got on it cause that's the glue for epp planks....... works great for stickin stuff. esc's i put a zip tie where i want it and put a dab in from the top inside the arm, remove tie in the morning. When you goto remove it, just twist the part and it shears the glue pretty easily. looks clean.

 

[kloner]

I've ran the suppo 2814 1000kv on 4s with 9x5 graupner props. it'll carry 6000mah of 4s and fly for 12-15 minutes depending how fast you go. on the rig above, it carries the suppo 2810 1000kv running on 4s with 8x5 graupners. That's whats in the two vids above, 2814 is the river, 2810 is the train tracks

yea, the ear plugs paint right up nice, i use it on my zII and it's the bomb. the mats not bad if you can split it with somebody, but honestly they both do the same thing, fix the final jello from whatever you end up tuning at

2212 is kinda on the small side, the 2810 are just enough and the 2814 are like flying around in a jet versus cesna. only problem is there super sensitive to altitude and that throttle, the smaller motors make it all smoother but sometimes don't have the oomph to get over stuff and stay flying forward.

i love the suppos for what they are. i use em as throwaways, crash it and tweak a prop, i'm most likely going home and swapping out the motor, prop adapter and prop just to keep it recording like that

 

[Jessestr]

Thanks.

With a 3S 2200 mAh I can fly for about 12 minutes aggressive. So actually very decent flying times. I'm using Gens Ace LiPo's since I really like their perfomance.
So 6000 mAh and only 15 minutes?

Doesn't look like an improvement to me. Motors are indeed small but very powerful for my rig. I don't carry a heavy GoPro.. My cam is 38 grams and shoots 1080p
But again, I guess you have an explanation for this?

I don't have the money to buy new motors every crash..

 

[kloner]

the difference is you have power. kinda like a 4 cylinder range versus a v-8 f150 versus a 350 diesel

if your not into fixing every little thing when you crash you'll get mediocre results. This was one weekend gone bad. the week before i had gotten a cooler of batteries hot and i checked the IR, but they were more damaged than they appeared. two batteries in 20 minutes caused lvc, you can see how the rest of the weekend taping went. Small motors don't handle wind at all and like mentioned, if you don't make perfect turns, you run out of lift and you crash. i can't imagine going back to 22mm motors again.... the 2810 are just enough, but the mileage aint all that great. At the end of the day, quads are for shorter more technical flights. if you need to go somewhere, you need a plane.

see how wobbly it flies after.....

Were talking about $20 motors, my point was versus changing out bearings and shafts after a crash, for $20 and $3 shipping i start over. cheaper and less headache. The initial cost of getting these things is cheap, keeping it in new condition is the trick. i fly 200 miles form home and i'm not there long enough to order and get parts. it's a vacation place

 

[Jessestr]

I see thanks for the information.

I was assuming that I didn't have the money for my 900KV motors which would cost $40 - $45. But if I stick with the Suppo's it is doable.
But in the beginning I just keep the motors after a crash. Did my first take off and landing in FPV with Goggles today and god, what an awesome feeling.
I wouldn't care for little wobbles when training.

Suppo 2810 1000kV or 1350kV?
Rated as 3-Cell?
If I want those I should get rid of these 2212/13 and try to find a buyer..

And yes, I'm not planning to fly far away. 500 meter average would be enough I think. It's more like a dream to get in the air and enjoy myself being there mentally. Haha, sounds creepy. But I wan't to discover places that aren't reachable without flying. Like old buildings (urbex/urban photography), views that I have never seen before, etc etc!

What battery you'd suggest with the 2810? I think some smaller batteries would work as well? Less weight on the frame.. And I have to find a use for my old 3S 2200 mAh too..

So much to think about !

 

[kloner]

i run em 4s with no problems, am using as much will fit in the back hatch at 4000 mah, it'll do 4400mah in 3s with blu sky brand. There a little thinner than the rest. in turnigy the biggest could get in was 3200mah 4s

have fun, that's what it's all about

 

[Jessestr]

Yes I want to have fun. So..getting 4S 6000 mAh packs and motors and achieve same flight times will be very expensive and that's not really fun?
I'd like to have 10-15 minutes without having to pay hundres of euro's for a pair of lipo batteries.



And I will never buy anything else from LiPo then Gens Ace. Hehe

 

[kloner]

i guess it's all in what you want. long flight times aren't my first priority at all. I want to go up mountains and surf down em as low as i can, it's all i got in my mind. to do it anywhere near right, those horrible flight time motors are needed. Alot of guys with these are running 40mm motors, like trappy. just sayin, 22's are for hoverin, if they get your rocks off then enjoy it while you can cause your gonna outgrow em

have you actually flown anywhere and got these flight times or is this hovering in your front yard? Mine will hover 20 minutes, does it at 200 watts, most likely the same as yours. the flight times go away by flying forward, like in atti full forward cyclic stick just held full forward. My watts goes from 200 to 600 and there the flight time shrinks. I'm a flyer, most likely the difference. You'll see if you start going someplace how it shrinks, and with 22's goes 30-35, with 28's does 48-50mph

 

[Jessestr]

Hi there

Well.. I could start with these 22's and like you say outgrow them and then get some more serious motors?

With my sport quad frames I got about 30 minutes with a 2200mAh 3S ~600 - 800 gram weight of quad - With Tiger Motor 2208 1100kV and Suppo 2212/13 1000kV about 22 minutes. And that was in aggressive mode. Full throttle all the way!

Wouldn't the ZII do the job better for cruising on mountains and going down on them? Maybe there is a way between the 22 and 28 that will suit my needs? I don't mind changing the battery but I should have some spare batteries and I don't want to pay 50 EUR / battery.

 

[kloner]

i've got both, but a few of these i wanna hit are only accessible by boat and there isn't always a landing spot other than the deck of the boat. the big one i'm after is called Picacho mountain

But yea, i'm into flying places, usually i'll go out and do a mile and back, usually eats a pack but that's my gig. Somewhere between 2810 and 2814 i hit that mark, i thought i mentioned that. The 2814's use alot less power and carry more than the 2810. Can fly like i do for 12-14 minutes on 6000mh packs using up 4800 mah. if i were to toss my rig into the wind with a 2200 mah battery i'd be afraid it'd blow away. the wind other than first light is usually 15-30 daily. Weight and power are my friends

 

[Jessestr]

If I'm getting other motors I was going to buy some new LiPo's anyways (4S).

2814 uses less power and carry more? Nice! Well You use the weight of the battery pack as a tool against the wind right? But check this out;.

53 EUR ~ $65
http://www.gensace.com/epages/genspow.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/genspow/Products/B-25C-4000-4S1P

This will be very expensive to get some packs of those. I'm really confused what to do, I'm stuck on the moment. I really appreciate your help and your kindness and patience to help me out of this!

 

[kloner]

http://www.hobbypartz.com/98p-25c-4000-4s1p.html

Thats the goin rate for any brand that size. I just got some blue sky from that place and the internal resistance almost didn't exist. honestly lower than any gens ace i have bought from them. but there all the same price, and as of yesterday when i ordered the last set, shipping over $50 was free.

those are my packs, right is 5000mah 4s, 2 are 4000mah 4s, 10 3000 4s then ground station 2s and 3s packs, i just added another 4 of the 4000mah 4s and 2 more of the 3000 2s for my monitor.

just go learn to fly, upgrade as you kill stuff. that's what i do. last christmas my wife got me a f450 arf, now i'm here

before then i'd only dreamed of flying fpv, when i found out how hard it was to make a long range rig work i got a little distracted but as i got the right parts that work with other right parts, things really came together. This morning i sold off two 600 size electric helicopters, got a gasser and 90 nitro to go. screw all other rc, this is where it's at, out the camera.

 

[Jessestr]

Wow. How can hobbypartz sell gens ace lower than the actual price?

SO many packs, so nice.. ! Could you explain what pack is for what usage, except for the groundstation packs & monitor; You already told that!
Really like your gear and experience, makes me do less stupid buys