X8 vs. flat octo redundancy comparison.

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Sorry to beat a dead horse but I couldnt find the answer in a search here.

If a flat octo has a motor go out, it is capable of running on 7/8 motors.
If an X8 has a motor go out, I am guessing it has to fly on no more than 4 motors worth of power or it would flip. Only way is if the FC somehow knew to use both motors on the 2 arms adjacent to the arm with a motor out. But I dont think this is the case.

This is important because I want redundancy but am pretty sure i would exceed the lifting ability of 4 motors.

Yuri
 

Mactadpole

Member

On an MK X8 it speeds up the other motor on the arm to compensate. The copter was fully loaded at about 4.6 kg in this video. X8 or XY-8 is the only way to go IMO. Flat 8 is just too darn big.

Shawn
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
479.png
 



Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
yuri,

a flat eight without arms on any of the cardinal points will have the same motor out performance as a coaxial x quad. a flat okto with arms on the cardinal points (front/back/left/right) would be a more difficult comparison to make to a + or x coaxial quad.
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I agree the flat 8 is too big to travel with. thats why i am asking. I am really curious if the 2 arms that are perpendicular to the one with a motor out can operate at full throttle.

Maybe i can elaborate my concerns.

I am planning on using one of Bart's XY8 setups as it is all around bad ***. But the one thing it is not really set up for is a dual operator. Clearly having a flat octo makes more sense for this. but I dont think the gimbal will need to do a 360 rotation when the heli is being pitched forward so much as it would show the lower motors in the frame. In other words, when you do a fast forward flight you normally have the camera pointed down and forward. When we have done a dual operator shot the heli is always on a controlled slower path where the heli hasnt been pitched forward that much. But it would suck to be asked to do a chase shot that pitched the heli forward enough that swinging the gimbal left or right would show the lower motors.

The components being used:

avroto/apc 12"
40 amp plush esc
hoverfly pro
av200 with 360/skyline
canon 7d,5d,nex 5n.


I am concerned that if a motor goes out on the X8 config that I will be way over loaded with a camera larger than the nex 5n.
 

Mactadpole

Member
I agree the flat 8 is too big to travel with. thats why i am asking. I am really curious if the 2 arms that are perpendicular to the one with a motor out can operate at full throttle.

Maybe i can elaborate my concerns.

I am planning on using one of Bart's XY8 setups as it is all around bad ***. But the one thing it is not really set up for is a dual operator. Clearly having a flat octo makes more sense for this. but I dont think the gimbal will need to do a 360 rotation when the heli is being pitched forward so much as it would show the lower motors in the frame. In other words, when you do a fast forward flight you normally have the camera pointed down and forward. When we have done a dual operator shot the heli is always on a controlled slower path where the heli hasnt been pitched forward that much. But it would suck to be asked to do a chase shot that pitched the heli forward enough that swinging the gimbal left or right would show the lower motors.

The components being used:

avroto/apc 12"
40 amp plush esc
hoverfly pro
av200 with 360/skyline
canon 7d,5d,nex 5n.


I am concerned that if a motor goes out on the X8 config that I will be way over loaded with a camera larger than the nex 5n.

You are definitely starting to add up a good bit of weight when you add the AV200/360 and big Canon cameras. Personally, I would move up from the Avroto's and apc 12". Don't know what to tell you to move up to but that is what I would consider, maybe 2820 motors(?). I am also hesitant to trust the HFP for redundancy on an X8. Do some searches over on RCG with X8 and hoverfly.

Shawn
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I think I read that post and it said something about it landed fine but had very little yaw authority? uggg. maybe I am impulsively purchasing without thinking this through. maybe i should just stick with a av130/360 and the nex 5n. I love that little camera. And i already have a second av130 sitting here on my desk.
 

jes1111

Active Member
Remember that in all cases (currently), the communication between the FC and the ESCs (and therefore the motors) is strictly one way, that is to say: the FC is never aware of whether its commands to the ESCs are being obeyed or not, and never aware of a motor stopping, a prop breaking, or whatever. In technical terms, that side of it is "open loop", i.e. there is no feedback - there is no path/mechanism for such feedback. Furthermore there is no code that says "if one motor stops then speed up this motor or slow down that one - such code, if it existed, would be called "adaptive", i.e. able to adapt to new/changed/different circumstances.

However, the other side of an FC - the gyros, accels, etc. - IS closed loop - i.e. the code is constantly trying to bring AttitudeActual and AttitudeDesired together by the only means available to it: varying the throttle setting of each of the motors. So whether or not it continues to fly with a motor/prop out depends entirely on the number of surviving motors involved, their positions and their relative contributions to the lift/control (as determined by the mixing table). It's therefore not even possible to generalise and say that all 8-motor MRs will survive the loss of a motor/prop. Too much will depend on the precise mixing set-up, the algorithm controlling the flight stabilisation, the attitude/inertia of the craft at the moment of failure, the reaction/input of the pilot, the CG balance of the craft, the prevailing wind, etc... etc... etc.

Nevertheless, many 8-motor craft (and, indeed many 6-motor craft) can and do survive such an event. What one can say is that the more motors you have, the better the chance of surviving the loss of one of them. Further, this "possible redundancy" starts at 6 motors, i.e. 4 motors will never survive, but 6-motored layouts tend to be more sensitive to the variables in play at the time (as compared to eight motors).

But... (there's always a "but", isn't there?)... statistically, a "failed motor" is probably the least common crash cause of all. From my observation across all the forums, broken props and self-disconnecting wires (along with poor soldering) are the leading causes (after pilot error, of course), followed closely by battery failure. It's easy enough to guard against the connection-linked failures (if you're aware of the importance). Avoiding cheapo battery packs reduces the risk of that cause. Good props (and a ruthless exchange policy if any damage/impact is experienced/observed) reduces that risk. Btw, one significant likelihood of a broken prop is that the pieces will take out an adjacent/nearby prop - pretty much negating all the redundancy possibilities.

My own conclusion, attempting to balance all these factors, is that an X8 represents the best layout possible for carrying a big/heavy/expensive camera, not because it has better redundancy than a flat-8 but simply because it's more compact/manageable.

However... :)... the next generation of FC/ESC will have closed-loop feedback. The only one I know of right now is the forthcoming OpenPilot Revolution which, when combined with the (forthcoming) OP-ESC will know if a motor is obeying its commands (and should even be able to deduce that a prop is broken). With such feedback it will be possible to write adaptive code that, whilst not able to change the basic physics of the problem, should greatly increase the likelihood of a safe, controlled landing following a component failure.
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Awesome response Jess, thanks

Can we all agree that a coaxial setup is always going to do better in wind as well? I can safely say my y6 does much better than my hex in wind as they were both made form the same parts. I would assume the X8 would be no different in this matter.
 



Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
an oktokopter with 8 arms in a flat arrangement. a coaxial quad, or X8, or XY8, has four arms each with two motors, one up and one down. good question.
 

DennyR

Active Member
That's my understanding too, yes. Something to do with air columns, drag and voodoo ;-)
Jes The best prop. lifting efficiency does not work hand in hand with stability. i.e. the larger swept area of the blades increases efficiency and decreases stability. The higher prop. loading from a smaller dia. improves stability. Therefore the X8 has less lift efficiency and more stability because the column of down thrust is at a higher velocity for any given payload. An analogy of this exists in full size aircraft, fixedwing or heli, the old pro's always fly with full tanks. You need a high wing loading to ride the bumps. Hence the improved stability in a turn.
 
Last edited by a moderator:


DennyR

Active Member
Just to add to the voodoo the X8 has a double weight inertia at the end of the arm which is a destabilizing factor, so it is not all perfect. I still believe that a quad can do the job as good as anything if done right. Hexa is better in high wind yaw response. I don't fear the redundancy factor anymore. Fact is that there are several ways to get the job done if the build quality is right. IMHO. It's all about what is important to you. Prop protection, endurance, weight,etc.etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
To add to my endless dilemma of X8 or octo, I was jsut told by hoverfly that the flat octo is the preferred setup for the best video. Uggg. I'm also pushing my payload and a flat octo will give me that little extra ooomph. Denny, whats the minimum spacing between props you recommend? I wish my umbrella idea wasnt so massive. It would be great to have a huge octo fit into the same size bag as my manfrotto 525 tripod.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Just to add to the voodoo the X8 has a double weight inertia at the end of the arm which is a destabilizing factor, so it is not all perfect. I still believe that a quad can do the job as good as anything if done right. Hexa is better in high wind yaw response. I don't fear the redundancy factor anymore. Fact is that there are several ways to get the job done if the build quality is right. IMHO. It's all about what is important to you. Prop protection, endurance, weight,etc.etc.

how is a two motor weight any different from two motors on two adjacent arms? i'm sorry but that's bunky.
 

I am very interested in either buying an X8 or flat octo soon. Very good thread, and good info! I have never flown a multi rotor, only single rotor heli's. Would an X8 be a good start?
but I dont think the gimbal will need to do a 360 rotation when the heli is being pitched forward so much as it would show the lower motors in the frame. In other words, when you do a fast forward flight you normally have the camera pointed down and forward. When we have done a dual operator shot the heli is always on a controlled slower path where the heli hasnt been pitched forward that much. But it would suck to be asked to do a chase shot that pitched the heli forward enough that swinging the gimbal left or right would show the lower motors.

Also worried about this..
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Top