Radio Interference

dazzab

Member
Occasionally I have seen incidents where a copter becomes uncontrollable. Users often times conclude that the cause might be radio interference, typically in the 2.4Ghz range that our Tx use. A very reliable source told me that the incident in Geraldton Australia, where a women participating in a marathon was hit by an out of control multirotor, might have been caused by interference from the transponders that the marathon runners were wearing. He claimed that they had reproduced the results in a lab.

Over the weekend I brought this up with a very knowledgable developer of flight controller software. He seemed to think that any kind of interference on 2.4 could not do anything but block the signal being received given that the signal itself has checksums and therefore the receiver would not pass on any valid data to the FC. In such a case a properly configured controller/receiver should go in to failsafe rather than loose control because what it would see is loss of signal resulting from the signal being swamped.

Given his in depth knowledge on the topic I'm really interested in knowing if anyone has any definitive research on the topic rather than just antidotal evidence? Does anyone know of any real research on what effect radio interference has on multi rotors or what causes these incidents where a copter just loses all control?

While I'm on the topic, we were advised at recent training for CASA (Australian FAA equivalent) certification to use signal scanners to check for interference before flights and that this might prevent a situation such as had happened in Geraldton. Does anyone actually use these scanners as part of their safety procedures?
 

Mojave

Member
Occasionally I have seen incidents where a copter becomes uncontrollable. Users often times conclude that the cause might be radio interference, typically in the 2.4Ghz range that our Tx use. A very reliable source told me that the incident in Geraldton Australia, where a women participating in a marathon was hit by an out of control multirotor, might have been caused by interference from the transponders that the marathon runners were wearing. He claimed that they had reproduced the results in a lab.

Over the weekend I brought this up with a very knowledgable developer of flight controller software. He seemed to think that any kind of interference on 2.4 could not do anything but block the signal being received given that the signal itself has checksums and therefore the receiver would not pass on any valid data to the FC. In such a case a properly configured controller/receiver should go in to failsafe rather than loose control because what it would see is loss of signal resulting from the signal being swamped.

Given his in depth knowledge on the topic I'm really interested in knowing if anyone has any definitive research on the topic rather than just antidotal evidence? Does anyone know of any real research on what effect radio interference has on multi rotors or what causes these incidents where a copter just loses all control?

While I'm on the topic, we were advised at recent training for CASA (Australian FAA equivalent) certification to use signal scanners to check for interference before flights and that this might prevent a situation such as had happened in Geraldton. Does anyone actually use these scanners as part of their safety procedures?

[MENTION=1417]kloner[/MENTION]; should chime in on this but a radio frequency analyzer is a vital piece of equipment that visual monitors or other flight crew members should use to analyze during the pre-flight, or day before check. There are many types of electronic equipment that can interfere with our radio controls. With an analyzer like: RF Explorer and Handheld Spectrum Analyzer the flight crew might decide to use UHF instead of 2.4GHz or take other precautions. I'll bet that some of the accidents that we have heard about are because these things were not considered. This separates the professionals form the enthusiastic amateurs out to make quick money.

I have this on my wishlist - it is the latest all-in-one analyzer: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GM72CGU...UTF8&colid=BQTMPBWUF22I&coliid=I36C44K8K4STL3
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Anyone who has completed HAM radio training knows just how easy it is to disrupt almost any radio signal, deliberately or accidentally. US armed forces were able to disrupt radio communication over an entire country in the Middle East some years back. A simple high power carbon arc lamp can produce excessive random RF noise so as to disrupt radio signals over an extremely wide RF spectrum. High power RF noise affects the SNR and SNR filtering of nearly all radio receivers.

Not all spread spectrum concepts are the same. Some such as true FHSS - frequency hopping with robust FH algorithms can work where others can falter. Faltering can be sudden or begin with extended latency. Other factors include the Tx output power, Rx sensitivity including SNR rejection capability etc. Even the best can fail if the spectrum is saturated by means of too many transmitters in the same small area. It is also possible but illegal to build or even buy radio signal jammers that can do harm in the unlicensed 900 Mhz SS and 2.4Ghz SS regions.
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Anyone who has completed HAM radio training knows just how easy it is to disrupt almost any radio signal, deliberately or accidentally. US armed forces were able to disrupt radio communication over an entire country in the Middle East some years back. A simple high power carbon arc lamp can produce excessive random RF noise so as to disrupt radio signals over an extremely wide RF spectrum. High power RF noise affects the SNR and SNR filtering of nearly all radio receivers.

Not all spread spectrum concepts are the same. Some such as true FHSS - frequency hopping with robust FH algorithms can work where others can falter. Faltering can be sudden or begin with extended latency. Other factors include the Tx output power, Rx sensitivity including SNR rejection capability etc. Even the best can fail if the spectrum is saturated by means of too many transmitters in the same small area. It is also possible but illegal to build or even buy radio signal jammers that can do harm in the unlicensed 900 Mhz SS and 2.4Ghz SS regions.
 

Ronan

Member
I'm curious to know how good (or bad) Futaba's FASST system is... for fighting interference... Anyone know?
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Futaba Hobby RC radio system technology has been leading in most areas for several decades, in large part due to that technology being first developed in the big money industrial business realms where the demand for high QC and safety are paramount. Consider the extreme requirements of SAE, IEEE, ISO900X etc. As an example they build and sell the world's safest and most reliable wireless overhead crane control systems for shipyards etc. More recently the Military has standardized on Futaba's proprietary wireless control systems including communication protocols and SS technology. FASST seems to be very robust and if outdone, it most likely will be outdone by FASSTest and/or future Futaba R&D.

Here is a bit more info on FASST: http://www.futaba-rc.com/technology/fasst.html
 
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Ronan

Member
That's what the A2 and my 14SG use, FASST. I'm just curious if it's easily jammable/interfered...

I know in a case of loss of transmission, our UAV's will hover in place for awhile before RTH, but in case of being jammed or a interference... i'm thinking it's not pleasant...
 



gtranquilla

RadioActive
Radio jamming is just excessive RF noise.....that degrades the SNR....to the point where the RC receiver cannot distinguish the signal.....The DJI FC response is the same as it would be for lost radio communication, i.e., will return home even if radio communication is reestablished.

That's what the A2 and my 14SG use, FASST. I'm just curious if it's easily jammable/interfered...

I know in a case of loss of transmission, our UAV's will hover in place for awhile before RTH, but in case of being jammed or a interference... i'm thinking it's not pleasant...
 

gtranquilla

RadioActive
Radio jamming is just excessive RF noise.....that degrades the SNR....to the point where the RC receiver cannot distinguish the signal.....The DJI FC response is the same as it would be for lost radio communication, i.e., will return home even if radio communication is reestablished.

That's what the A2 and my 14SG use, FASST. I'm just curious if it's easily jammable/interfered...

I know in a case of loss of transmission, our UAV's will hover in place for awhile before RTH, but in case of being jammed or a interference... i'm thinking it's not pleasant...
 

kloner

Aerial DP
we use rf explorers as part of the pre flight checklist.

IMO alot of people call when a multi does anything but expected radio interference and it's simply not the case. motors going out, vibrations building send certain flight controllers into what could be interpreted to radio interference but is actualy a malfunction of the FC.

FASST uses 2400-2410 ish and hops all around there to maintain link, FASSTest uses most if not the entire 2400 mhz band to hop across....
 

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