Phantom Vision - Can I produce video that I can sell?

[Accupro]

Not sure if I mentioned it in this thread but there is a local company here in Phx doing the real estate aerial video thing and states the video is free, he just charges for the editing!!

For me I could see a situation where I am taking an aerial video of a property I have been contracted to inspect and then a nosey neighbor comes over and asks me what I'm doing and worst case calls the police or something. I have had it happen once or twice in the last 10+ years inspecting just because I'm at the property, I could see the nosey neighbor quotient going up significantly if I'm flying a drone.

I think as others have mentioned you just do your thing and don't be stupid about it and most people are going to leave you alone.

 

[saphotoexpress]

So I started this thread a few weeks ago (seems much longer) and took all of the comments very seriously. I figured that if people with thousands of posts (and great knowledge) felt this passionately about this subject, that I should really see what they were talking about. I've owned and operated a reasonably successful business for 20+ years (Professional Photo Lab) and when I saw the Niagra Falls video, I really thought I had an original idea and it looked like it would be a lot of fun. When I didn't find many others in my area offering the service, I thought it was because it was a new industry and no one was doing it yet (I now know better).

When I starting looking at the Phantom a few months ago, I had no idea that people were buying the Phantom Vision (or RTF's) as travel camera's or as "toys". I had never met someone who owned one or even seen someone flying one of these but I now see B&H Photo advertising them in their email newsletters to photographers. I know a few weeks might seem like a short time for research, but I have a lot of time during the day (and some at night) so I've read through the entire group build thread and the TBS Discovery thread on this forum. I've also been searching through other threads, other forums, manufacturer websites, and youtube for info as well. I don't know how many hours I've spent searching, but it sure feels like a lot (maybe 6+hrs per day). I also realized that I wasn't flying my little Blade 180 enough (bad weather or no daylight) so I bought a nano and started flying inside.

I'm no longer looking at the RTF Phantom Vision and would like to build my own. I've built gliders, gas planes and a RC10 truck, but it's been a while. I'll have to start from scratch on radios as all of my other stuff is outdated or not appropriate.

At my day job, I'm always fixing equipment and software, so I'm definitely not afraid of repairs or technology. I'm thinking of building a TBS Discovery. I just like everything about it and would like to know if you guys think this would be too advanced as a starter project?

FYI, I thought about starting another thread and will eventually ask more questions in other existing threads, but felt that if someone found this thread, they should see what I end up with and why.

 

[Motopreserve]

I don't think the TBS would be too advanced at all. It seems to me most frames are not the toughest part of the build. You have taken care of the tough part - the research and the practice on the Blades. Dive in. While you may hit some snags, you've obviously found the right place for help.

Keep us updated!

 

[Av8Chuck]

unfortunately this thread got derailed with the first reply, it really isn't about RTF Vs building your own, its about AP [which is why this topic was given its own section on the forum]. There are a lot of people using GoPro's commercially, it just depends on the application and the audience. There are a lot of people selling aerial footage using GoPro's, regarding your initial question I think it has more to do with the quality of footage from the camera on the Vision.

It doesn't matter whether you use a Phantom or build it yourself, what matters is which camera you want to fly, how stable you want the footage, how much articulation and control you want over the camera during flight. That will determine what king of multirotor or helicopter you need.

This was mentioned earlier, like anything it takes a great deal of practice to get good at AP, a Phantom with a 2-axis gimbal and GoPro is a great "starter" setup for learning AP. You'll get footage that will give you the feedback you need to improve your piloting skills, post production skills and overall safety skills without risking a lot of money in equipment. Then if you want to continue you'll be much better informed when it comes times to move up to fly bigger camera's.

Building your own is great, but then much of your focus will be on the RC side of the profession, spending a lot more time building and tuning, which is good to know but its a bit more about RC than AP. I don't like the Phantom much but I sure wish it was around when I started, not that I could have used it immediately for AP but it probably would have helped me get to where I am now a year faster. The Phantom ail get you up and flying and practicing AP so much faster than building your own very inexpensively.

 

[Motopreserve]

Av8 makes some great points.

The one thing I'd say for building your own is that if/when you move on to doing more experienced, competent aerial video, it may be good for you to be able to troubleshoot your rig while on a job. Building your own from the get-go allows you to hone your skills for repair/mods, as well as the video side of things.

It's true building is more of the RC side of things, but that might end up being the side that gets you out of a jam in front of a client.

 

[Accupro]

I concur with Sapho relative to the amount of time I have put into doing the research, posting on forums, watching YouTube, manufacturers sites, etc. My specific flying experience, and modifications to see if it would work for my application was the AR Drone. I probably knew up front when I suggested the AR to santa that it was more of a toy and would not really work for me as a help with my job.

I have come to some conclusions and have a few questions:

1. Unless I'm mistaken it would appear the kits like the DJI F450 for instance offer very little if anything more then the Phantom 2 lets say. I would have thought that building a kit would have been cheaper then buying a RTF like the Phantom 2 but it seems just the opposite, am I missing something?

2. I appreciate there would be more options to consider with the F450 like longer arms, bigger motors, etc. but if the Phantom 2 with a gimbal would do the job relative to AP for less money, then why chose the F450 unless as was said your interest lie more in RC?

3. Relative to the Phantom Vision it seems again that this RTF would be cheaper even then the Phantom 2 w/gimbal and GoPro, albeit with a single axis gimbal. So again if the Vision would meet your AP needs then what would be the compelling reason to go with a kit?

Although the Phantom 2 and Vision are relatively new and sold as RTF there seems to be a significant number of upgrades, hacks, etc. for these quads, even though they are relatively new. There are already a few companies offering a 2 axis gimbals for the Vision. At the heart of the Vision you still have the NAZA M2, OSD, FPV, single axis gimbal, and a camera that compares favorable to the GoPro with remote tilt control and video with over a mile in range!

Kinda sounds like I'm talking myself into a Vision but I would still prefer to have what, 5.8Hz for video rather than the 2.4Hz WiFi. I would also like to be able to zoom my camera remotely and I have not found anyone who knows if the VP-Systems (http://vp-systems.eu/camremote.html) module would work to control a low-cost point-and-shoot camera like my little Canon ELPH through the USB/CHDK method. Although the web site seems to indicate it would control it through an extra transmitter channel?

Does obviously have to do with what your trying to achieve with AP. In my case I'm looking for relatively low resolution photos to include in an inspection report relative to the condition of the roof. So for me it would be best to be able to "see" at the highest resolution on the ground as the quad is over the roof, take a perspective shoot and then zoom into a more specific defect shot. Or fly down closer to the roof, but it would be better to stand-off and zoom. So with zooming I would need little or no jello (2 axis gimbal). My other challenge would be the ability to "see" what the camera is seeing from the ground and what has been suggested would be a monitor with a sun shield on a tripod and the ability to quickly also look back at the quad.

Anyway anybody have answers to the questions posed above and/or knowledge of the VP-Systems device?

 

[Av8Chuck]

I had what I thought was a good understanding how to accomplish AP when I first started and quickly learned that it was quite different than I thought it was. People on forums can explain how to do it but they really cant prepare you for actually doing it. After some amount of practice you can come back and ask specific questions that forum members can answer to help you improve. Also there are a lot of people who are very well versed with RC [tech talk] but have little experience with AP, or photography/cinematography for that matter, and often provide advice that is antithetical to good AP.

There seem to be a lot of add ons for the Phantom, but there are probably much better ways to upgrade the F450 so your less likely to out grow the F450 as quickly. Although the F450 is a kit it is easy to build. Like a lot of people doing AP with MR's you'll probably find that you'll outgrow the NAZA and want to replace it, there are a ton of threads that debate the virtues of the various controllers. It is pretty difficult to beat the NAZA's price/performance for a starter controller and there are plenty of people using the Wookong-M for professional AP.

If you decide to go the DJI route you might want to consider that the Vision uses a proprietary or OEM camera, I'm not sure what accessories are available to mount it to anything other than the Phantom whereas a GoPro can be used in a lot of different applications.

Generally you want to decide if you want to fly FPV or LOS, its not a good idea to fly LOS and then use the monitor for AP/FPV and then switch back to LOS. It can get disoriented when you look up from the monitor expecting to see the quad and its not where you thought it was.

I don't know anyone using a zoom lens in flight. I'm sure someone does it but longer lenses really exaggerate vibrations and any moves of the gimbal.

 

[Motopreserve]

It seems that the main difference, as Chuck points out, is flexibility. I think the Phantom is meant to operate the way they ship it to you (hacks aside). The other options you can modify as much as you wish. The closed frame alone means parts/replacements need to be DJI.

Keep in mind that 5.8ghz is a frequency which will drop from physical interference. If you plan on being around the back of the house from where you launch, you may have drop outs.

I think the zoom will be your biggest challenge. A zoom-able lens will add weight. The action of zooming can throw off gimbal balance.

 

[adanac]

I'm not sure who might purchase Phantom/GoPro aerial photography - I don't find the quality very good. There is a place for the GoPro in television production, however, which is why I want to have both a reliable GoPro platform along with a bigger DSLR rig. Connecting with producers and flying well enough to get good footage are another thing altogether.

 

[Motopreserve]

I'm not sure who might purchase Phantom/GoPro aerial photography - I don't find the quality very good. There is a place for the GoPro in television production, however, which is why I want to have both a reliable GoPro platform along with a bigger DSLR rig. Connecting with producers and flying well enough to get good footage are another thing altogether.

The key for some is how quickly and comfortably they can get in the air. Ultimately, for serious work, people will probably opt for a larger craft that can handle more equipemnt and customization. But if the Phantom gets you in the air - and you start churning out video, and can learn from that...I guess that's a pretty good start.

 

[adanac]

+1 Gotta start somewhere!

The key for some is how quickly and comfortably they can get in the air. Ultimately, for serious work, people will probably opt for a larger craft that can handle more equipemnt and customization. But if the Phantom gets you in the air - and you start churning out video, and can learn from that...I guess that's a pretty good start.

 

[TheUFGadget]

The short answer is YES you can do what you are asking. There are going to be guys on here that chastise you for wanting to do it that way but really all that matters is that you are meeting your clients needs. If you client wants a shoot done with a specific camera other than a GoPro then yea I think you are a little out of luck, but again can't meet their needs. If someone is asking for a professional quality video they can use on their website a phantom 2 with a GoPro filming at 2K will more than get the job done. The question is, how good are you at editing and making what your clients want. You don't need one of those massive rigs and if someone only hires people "with PRO quality rigs" then they don't know what the hell they are talking about and chances are even if you filmed with one of those you wouldn't make the client happy. I would get a phantom 2 with H3-3D and learn some about FPV frequencies. From there get you some good FPV gear and get some good practice editing (who knows maybe you are an awesome editer looking to get into the hobby!)!

Don't let people scare you into thinking you need deep pockets to come out on top. End result and what you give your customer is the deal breaker. Experience is a part in that and anyone who conducts themselves professionally and produces professional products will be held in a high regard.

 

[adanac]

There are going to be guys on here that chastise you for wanting to do it.....

I don't know if chastise is the right word but it's true that people will say you need a larger rig for higher end jobs and that is correct.

You don't need one of those massive rigs...

In my experience you need something along the lines of an 800 to fly a small DSLR or DSLM, which give you better footage than the GoPro.

and if someone only hires people "with PRO quality rigs" then they don't know what the hell they are talking about

I disagree with this completely but I have to confess I don't fully understand what it means. If a Production Manager wants a certain piece of gear that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. It sounds like he knows exactly what he's talking about. If my client asks me to shoot something on my Scarlet instead of my GoPro I don't tell them they don't know what they're talking about. It's possible I'm misunderstanding what was meant by that statement.

Don't let people scare you into thinking you need deep pockets to come out on top.

It's not a matter of scaring, it's matter of what top jobs demand. If you want to be at the top you will need top gear and that takes money.

The question is, how good are you at editing and making what your clients want.

A lot of clients will already have an editor. Virtually all of mine do. Obviously, if you're shooting on your own and making, say, a video for a car dealership then you'll probably have to do post as well.

anyone who conducts themselves professionally and produces professional products will be held in a high regard

Very true.

OP, I asked the same questions you have asked. I have purchased and have been trying to get good footage with the Phantom 2 and the TBS Discovery Pro. This week I built an F550 but have yet to get a gimbal for it.

In my experience (as a tv camera operator) there is a place for the GoPro in film/tv production and my plan is to have both a stable GoPro platform and something larger, like an S800 or S1000 for flying a DSLR or even my Scarlet or an Epic.

The problem I have encountered is that the quads I have tried do not handle wind well. Wind makes piloting/getting shots harder, makes the quad shake/move around (producing poor footage) and makes the quad yaw, also producing poor footage. I have to conclude that the videos of great P2 or Disco Pro footage that I watched were made under ideal conditions, not the conditions I face virtually every time I fly (here in the Northeast), which are winds. I'm hoping the new 3D gimbal will help with the yaw. If you are flying for a tv show you will have little leeway in choosing the conditions you fly in so you will want to be as wind-resistant as possible. I see people here all the time saying "my Phantom does great in wind" and I believe that they think so. I just don't think they have tv standards when they say it.

So, the long answer is also YES, there is work to be had with a GoPro platform but the conditions have to be right and, generally, you're not going get higher end jobs. But you can work up to them!

 

[Motopreserve]

I took it to mean if someone just states something generic and like "pro gear" they probably aren't very informed.

I think the bottom line is a HollywoodTV type probably knows at least enough to know they don't want a Phantom - because they may have had experience (or at least heard of) decent rigs.

 

[adanac]

Most production managers and DP's probably don't know the names and specs of the specific multis that might be used, nor do they need to. At that point you aren't in the RC world, you are in the film/tv production world where you will be judged by your reel before they even call you back. The "HollywoodTV type" (?), who will be your boss, will clearly see the quality of the camera used. They don't need to know what multi carried the camera, which is what I think you're saying.

I took it to mean if someone just states something generic and like "pro gear" they probably aren't very informed.

I think the bottom line is a HollywoodTV type probably knows at least enough to know they don't want a Phantom - because they may have had experience (or at least heard of) decent rigs.

 

[Motopreserve]

Most production managers and DP's probably don't know the names and specs of the specific multis that might be used, nor do they need to. At that point you aren't in the RC world, you are in the film/tv production world where you will be judged by your reel before they even call you back. The "HollywoodTV type" (?), who will be your boss, will clearly see the quality of the camera used. They don't need to know what multi carried the camera, which is what I think you're saying.

Exactly. By Hollywood/tv type, I meant professional production (TV had been referenced in you precious post), as opposed to your uncle who owns a car wash ("and won't those cheerleaders look great washing them cars in that shot from that there heeelicopter.")

I can't imagine a DP (if you speak to them) or whoever sets up the gig simply stating bring "pro gear." It seems to me they would specifically ask for a rig that can handle a 5D/RED/(fill in the blank). Or maybe they ask for a gopro - and then if you feel like you're confident you can get the quality needed - show up with the phantom.

That being said, at this point I think it's safe to assume that even people working in production watch the news (or read endgadget, wired or any number of tech savvy sites). And if they do, chances are they've seen the phantom in the hands of an amateur or hobbyist. And that doesn't bode well for the sell-ability of the phantom. Perception is a huge part of it - and the more hobby hands these things make it to - the more the ubiquitous phantom will be associated with lesser quality - fact or not.

Also, just from a gut-feeling aspect. The phantom looks like a toy. It is capable of far more than a toy - but at first glance, it simply doesn't carry the impact of seeing an hex or Octo with electronics oozing sophistication

but at the end of the day - you're right. You don't even get the call unless your reel inspires confidence and quality. And whether that quality comes from a gopro is really in the hands of the user.

 

[haha49]

As there seems to be a HUGE amount of kids with Phantoms willing to do work for free, I would say that you could probably do commercial work....for free. I would personally be absolutely embarrassed to show up with a Phantom or an f450/550 on a set and call myself a pro. It's like someone with an iphone calling themselves a photographer. Sure it might take decent shots but c'mon, who are you fooling? The only viable situation I could see selling someone on the phantom would be if the shot was inherently dangerous and had a high probability of failure such as close up big surf shots or flying around fire. My advise would be to keep the phantom for fun/training/travelling/learning fpv. Having said this, I have actually seen pretty impressive footage come from a stabilized go pro using the Phantom. If you could do your shoots without the client seeing what you are flying it might work.

You don't need an ultra high end gear to get that 1 shot. Sometimes the cheaper stuff works better because your willing to risk losing it for that 1 great shot with an expensive rig your to chicken to get that shot. Bigger better cameras look nicer of course how ever for a shot of say a house or around a house close in the gopro works just fine. To get a shot that you only get 1 chance to get it for film for example then use the pro stuff.

Let me put it to you this way you can spend 30,000 on camera gear and still not get a good picture with it. It's the person doing it that makes the difference being able to use so called crap gear makes you better at it as you have to work harder for the shot. A phantom with a gimbal and a gopro is a good choice for most shots and the nice thing is you can fly in a smaller airspace were a big rig you have less room. Add an FPV setup so you can frame your shot correctly it makes a huge difference. I have a phantom 1 and a F550 the F550 is more stable does a slightly better job but going bigger and puting a better camera up there does look better but how good do you really need? Better quality means allot more money.

I know allot of people in the movie an prop industry. It's not easy to get into unless you know someone or your willing to make some phone calls and talk to people. I know the owners of the company as I have worked for them in the past for diving and firearm related things. The companys are always looking for the next neat thing and sometimes they want to do it for cheap because they have a limited budget but if buying prograde gear is worth the investment they will do it. Just call up studios and ask them if they would have any intrest in getting shots from the air. It's 1 of the things you have to show what you can do or start small and work your way up once they know you and they're happy with your work and (price) they will keep calling you that's what the movie companys do for film and Tv.

 

[adanac]

Question: "but how good do you really need?"

Answer: As good as the production requires.

If the production is okay with GoPro footage and you can get that with the P2 then great. If the production wants better quality footage then you would have to use something different. There is much being discussed that is interesting, certainly, but not relevant to the realities of film/tv production.

I shoot reality and I know that some of my clients will be okay with GoPro footage and some won't. It starts and ends with what the client wants. What you or I want is not relevant.

You don't need an ultra high end gear to get that 1 shot. Sometimes the cheaper stuff works better because your willing to risk losing it for that 1 great shot with an expensive rig your to chicken to get that shot. Bigger better cameras look nicer of course how ever for a shot of say a house or around a house close in the gopro works just fine. To get a shot that you only get 1 chance to get it for film for example then use the pro stuff.

Let me put it to you this way you can spend 30,000 on camera gear and still not get a good picture with it. It's the person doing it that makes the difference being able to use so called crap gear makes you better at it as you have to work harder for the shot. A phantom with a gimbal and a gopro is a good choice for most shots and the nice thing is you can fly in a smaller airspace were a big rig you have less room. Add an FPV setup so you can frame your shot correctly it makes a huge difference. I have a phantom 1 and a F550 the F550 is more stable does a slightly better job but going bigger and puting a better camera up there does look better but how good do you really need? Better quality means allot more money.

 

[umatillagarry]

These are jpeg's that I pulled from video that I did using a Phantom 1 with a GoPro 3 Black on a gimbal; both video and pics turned out fine and client was happy so I'm happy too !

 

[Motopreserve]

client was happy so I'm happy too !

Congratulations and nice work everyone being pleased with the final outcome is all that counts!