MRF No Clone Zone??

[Bartman]

This has been bothering me for a while now. Clones are theft and I'm not sure discussions about them should be welcome here. What do you guys think?

I had the opportunity to display one of my heli's at the Toldeo show and an older chinese guy was estimated to have taken 100 or so photos of my camera mount when I was away from the booth. Every angle, top, bottom, he got it.

RCtimer is a big problem, as is HobbyKing. So what do we do about it? I have a lot of respect for you guys and your opinions so what do we do? Do we declare MultiRotorForums.com a No Clones Zone???

 

[hjls3]

its a great idea - its a growing problem in a bunch of industries - but seems this one is growing so fast that there are many fly by night guys - cashing in on the work of others.

 

[Dewster]

I think there's no real feasible way to get around hardware exploitation. 3D printing is making it easier to clone simple objects. Never mind that what you print is the intellectual property of someone that researched, designed, and poured their heart and soul into a project. On the software side, such as flight systems, I imagine that the code could be encrypted and protected so that its content could not be hacked or physically manipulated like Iron Key. Or at least make'em work harder for it.

I'm thinking if you are going to display something to the public, maybe leave a critical component out (if you can). Like a mystery piece if your design is complex enough. I wonder how legitimate business will stay afloat.

Theres even clones of clones floating around.

 

[Droider]

Not sure how you enforce it Bart.

So someone finds a frame on HK or RC and buys it totally unaware of its a clone. What do we say. No we cant help you coz U bought a clone!

There are soooooo many frames out there. What maybe we coulld have is a rouges gallery showing the real deal and the clone. That way we at least try and help people make to right choices.

May be post some examples up.

Dave

 

[Bartman]

i hear you Dave. with RC planes, the clones are a step into the hobby with a lot of guys still intending to buy the real deal when they are ready for it or can afford it.

it's a problem, just throwing an idea out there for discussion. designing my own gear has been a real eye opener. it isn't just a lot of work and creative energy being stolen by clones, it's a lot of heart, determination, time and money redirected away from family, all the stuff that isn't as obvious when a new product comes to market. i don't think RCtimer would do as well if we didn't give them these forums to promote their crappy products.

there are lots of examples, RCtimer is just one with their Cinestar clones.

 

[swisser]

The same likelihood of a threat represented by someone Chinese with a camera, i.e. the vast vast vast majority of Americans with a backpack are no threat whatsoever. Similarly the vast vast vast majority of Chinese people with a camera are not out to steal anything. I was trying to demonstrate that I don't think it's a good idea to treat one fifth of the planet as criminals just because they carry a camera any more than it would be a good idea to treat all Americans as criminals because some of them have guns. Reductio ad absurdum.

As to the original question, I don't think it's your (or MRF) responsibility to police clones. What will happen when there is a grey error, i.e what happens if who was the original and who was the clone is under dispute? What constitutes a clone and what doesn't? It's all a bit thorny.

Wouldn't it be better to let the products speak for themselves? By allowing discussion pointing out the inferior quality of the clone (if that is the case) you'd be helping people to know what they're buying. And if a clone is superior then no doubt people will point that out too, whilst also explaining that the IP rights of the original designer have been infringed and allowing buyers to make up their own mind. In other words, I think more discussion of clones is good as it will lead to more information and knowledge.

 

[Bartman]

many people have taken pictures of my heli's out of curiosity and to show friends. never has anyone taken 100 photos to document every last detail and dimension.

people with backpacks aren't a threat until they present themselves in a way that is consistent with criminal behavior.

are you suggesting we should ignore demonstrated behavior by an individual until such time that they've actually committed their crime?

ignorantia est beatitudinis

 

[Bartman]

..........................I think more discussion of clones is good as it will lead to more information and knowledge.

perfect then, you approve of this thread.

 

[swisser]

I agree completely and in fact you've reasserted my own argument. By all means prevent the guy taking 100 photos because it's unlikely he is doing that with a criminal intent, rather just to show his friends etc. My comment (which having been removed renders this whole discussion confusing and pointless) was aimed at the absurdity of the suggestion that you should treat everyone who happens to be Chinese and have a camera as a criminal. To be honest now that that comment has been removed I'm happy. If you want to delete my responses too that's cool with me.

 

[swisser]

perfect then, you approve of this thread.

Absolutely. It's a healthy discussion, all the better without the unjustified stereotyping.

 

[Bartman]

I agree completely and in fact you've reasserted my own argument. By all means prevent the guy taking 100 photos because it's unlikely he is doing that with a criminal intent, rather just to show his friends etc. My comment (which having been removed renders this whole discussion confusing and pointless) was aimed at the absurdity of the suggestion that you should treat everyone who happens to be Chinese and have a camera as a criminal. To be honest now that that comment has been removed I'm happy. If you want to delete my responses too that's cool with me.

i deleted your comment and yuri's. yours was deleted because it was the proverbial grenade toss, intended to be inflammatory without much explanation.

there was no unjustified stereotyping, the person in the first post was pointed out to me because of his overtly suspicious behavior. he was judged because he actually demonstrated suspicious behavior. maybe i could have done better by you by not referring to him as a chinese man, my bad. very non-PC of me but where are the majority of cloned RC products coming from? Have you ever been to China? There are entire markets, five story buildings, full of knock-off products. There's barely room to walk the places are so full of counterfeit merchandise, all of it junk.

in post #9 i don't know if you meant to say "unlikely" or "likely" but it doesn't make sense the way it's written.

 

[Tomstoy2]

Bart, it's an interesting discussion. Though I agree with the resentment towards clones as a whole, I do recognize that for many it's a viable opportunity to get into the hobby. As such, I feel we, ( you ), have a responsibility to share knowledge to get them up and running. I've been in the hobby of making things fly for over 50 years. When I moved into multi's, I found this forum and asked many questions, and help when stuck. I didn't go down the clone route, but the point is, if a guy needs help, where then should he go? Now, I do have a strong negative opinion if a manufacturer of clones were to come to this site to promote their 'stolen' product they should be immediately banned! I also feel that we, as members, when encountering a guy contemplating a clone should take it upon ourselves to educate said such new prospect of the harm these clones do to our hobby. It may be a good idea to have in the header somewhere a short warning posted that states how harmful these manufacturers of clones do to our hobby. Maybe a " read this before you buy" in bold highlight. Just my 2 cents.

 

[swisser]

Sorry, yes I meant likely.

As for the rest, you do realise I wasn't even commenting on your post about the Chinese man, right? So nor was I suggesting you were unPC or anything else. Mine was a response to the suggestion by another poster that you should react a certain way to all Chinese people with cameras. That IS stereotyping and I think this discussion is more useful without it. Yes there is a lot of cloning, yes most of it is in China and yes I have seen it. For the final time all I was saying is I think it's wrong to assume everyone who is Chinese is out to steal by cloning.

Normally you mod this board really well but you've made a horlicks of half of this thread. I'll bow out on this topic. Like I said, I'm happy now the stereotyping has been removed.

 

[Bartman]

Bart, it's an interesting discussion. Though I agree with the resentment towards clones as a whole, I do recognize that for many it's a viable opportunity to get into the hobby. As such, I feel we, ( you ), have a responsibility to share knowledge to get them up and running. I've been in the hobby of making things fly for over 50 years. When I moved into multi's, I found this forum and asked many questions, and help when stuck. I didn't go down the clone route, but the point is, if a guy needs help, where then should he go? Now, I do have a strong negative opinion if a manufacturer of clones were to come to this site to promote their 'stolen' product they should be immediately banned! I also feel that we, as members, when encountering a guy contemplating a clone should take it upon ourselves to educate said such new prospect of the harm these clones do to our hobby. It may be a good idea to have in the header somewhere a short warning posted that states how harmful these manufacturers of clones do to our hobby. Maybe a " read this before you buy" in bold highlight. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks for your input Tomstoy2. I had started to type a response earlier about clones being a way into the hobby for some and that the intent is to make future purchases of the brand name stuff. It happens all the time with RC planes. It must have been deleted with some other comments that didn't make it into the post.

Running a forums site is complicated, you want to help people but you don't want less sincere people taking advantage of the community we've assembled. It would be a lot easier if I were only in this as an advertising company for the money as I wouldn't necessarily be concerned with any of this stuff. But that's not the case so I try to consider what is the best course of action given what I know about the situation.

lots of stuff to consider......hmmmm

 

[Bartman]

Sorry, yes I meant likely.

As for the rest, you do realise I wasn't even commenting on your post about the Chinese man, right? So nor was I suggesting you were unPC or anything else. Mine was a response to the suggestion by another poster that you should react a certain way to all Chinese people with cameras. That IS stereotyping and I think this discussion is more useful without it. Yes there is a lot of cloning, yes most of it is in China and yes I have seen it. For the final time all I was saying is I think it's wrong to assume everyone who is Chinese is out to steal by cloning.

Normally you mod this board really well but you've made a horlicks of half of this thread. I'll bow out on this topic. Like I said, I'm happy now the stereotyping has been removed.

i deleted Yuri's post earlier because I saw that it prompted your response and agreed we could do without it. when i moderate people's goofy comments i catch hell, when i don't i still end up catching hell......the life of a moderator.

 

[Stacky]

One of the difficulties with cloned goods of any sort can be the simple problem of people not realising something is a clone. I hate clones, I hate that people will rip off others hard work in R&D. In my mind its simply theft. Trouble is I have inadvertently bought cloned goods in this multi rotor hobby simply because I had no idea it was cloned. It has been pleasing to see however that there are plenty of people who object to the whole cloning scene and a good example was the Ecilop and the opposition people expressed to the companies cloning that quad. It didn't stop people buying the knock offs but it did make people aware. I like the idea that on here people will object or let others know if something is a clone.

 

[Droider]

I have to just say I almost edited Yuri's post this morning as it did not sit comfortably with me. I agree With Bart in removing it, I did not see Swissers response but they are usually very well written and obviously thought through. Needless to say the life of a Mod is not always that easy when something starts to escalate. But hayho thats life and if we all had the same opinion it would be a right boring place!

Stacky has reinforced what I commented on, lets just make people aware of clones. A Sticky or a locked thread just updated by mods after evidence has been looked at so people can go and check if what they are looking at is a clone may be a way forward.

Dave

 

[DucktileMedia]

Sorry, I get really hot headed when the whole Chinese marketing topic comes up. Though you could have left my last comment, which I think is safe. I hope we add a 500% tax to imports from China as the balance is not "balanced" at all. And seeing "them" constantly steal ideas and have no issues reproducing them and then selling them back to us is maddening. There is no penalty for anything they do over there. And we still buy the garbage! I dont feel picked on here. After all it was bart who started the whole thread mentioning a chinese guy was snapping pics and stealing his idea, right? So it clearly is ok to mention Chinese steal without guilt. Of course, only suspicious looking guys with cameras. I have plenty of Chinese friends, that is not the issue. The issue is the ethics of business and the fact they have no one to answer to. The only thing that would stop it is you and me by NOT buying the products. But we are so driven by frugality that we will ignore all morals to get something for half off no matter where it came from. So yes, I toss political hand grenades over the fence because I WANT to fire up people's understanding of how crooked it is and hopefully make a few feel guilty for actually purchasing these clones. And even the products that arent clones, like DJI stuff, is advertised everywhere but not supported by anyone but the US resellers. Without Robert from UAV products, there would be NO support here. yet they continue to ask us to test their crap while it crashes so frequently the few insurers have to decline equipment coverage.

 

[PeteDee]

Couple of observations.

1. Pretty much everything we use from any manufacturer is potentially and probably a "clone", there is not really much out there that really is new.

2. If you exclude newbies/oldbies that have used/use "clones" then you will be excluding a large user base that given the right nurturing will go on to bigger and better multi's.

3. There are companies that do not support their "non clone" equipment very well at all, will they be excluded as well because they do not meet a set standard?

4. A couple of very successful flight oriented forums support "clones", seems it is better to be inclusive than exclusive.

5. Not all "clones" really are clones, some are simply marketed under different names and qualities or as OEM products to let more people to buy the same or similar product at different price points.

6. I probably have more to say but this is probably enough for now.

Cheers.

Pete

 

[jetbootz]

waht about all the people who wouldnt be able to afford to be in the hobby at all without places like hobbyking ??? its all ok for loaded folks to say how bad clones are , but some people have mortage kids wifey bills crap job and just want to have a little fun ? is that a crime ? like the post above states, almost everything is a clone nowadays.

I would not be in the hobby if it were not for hobbyking. I went into the local hobbyshop here in QLD aus, the guys knew litterally ZERO about multicopters. I wnet to buy a male to male servo connector wire and they said

" we've been getting lots of requests for those recently dont know why people would want them we dont do them , have this instead ( 4 bucks for a crap alterantive !) "

so it would have cost me 32 dollars for a crap alternative for simple M - M servo leads, which are like 2 bucks a PACK on HK. hobbyking is not a problem , its awesome.