I am disappointed in one of our own members for his neglegent decision to fly over freeways.

Old Man

Active Member
I would not disagree that some forms of commercial uav ops should be regulated and greater safety measures should be in place, such as blos and heavier uavs especially if they are operating in airspace with other aircraft. But the majority of vids like in the original post that people complain about do not fall under those situations. Currently most commercial operations do not fall into that category either.

We can thank the over reaction to these videos by the media (which includes threads likes this) for regulation as much as the videos themselves. Phantom crashes into WhiteHouse lawn end result pick up broken pieces, phantom crashes into ferris wheel end result cheap plastic table broken, S800 crashes into crowd at soccer match end result pick up broken pieces, Ricky Martin tries to catch a mr end result a few stitches but the media acts like it is inevitable that the audi commercials of the world will be the end result.

And yes we have incomplete data of mr accidents which is as much of an argument against regulation as for. I am fully aware of fatal accidents involving rc aircraft but as you stated most if not all of them involved the operator and those in recent memory involve someone performing 3d heli maneuvers to close to themselves.
But at this point I am confident in saying that there is as much hobby uav flying going on as general aviation flying going on and the major accident rate for hobby uavs in basically zero to date.

If your concern is regulation of traditional RC activity (flying at an AMA field) I wouldn't worry to much. The FAA has not seemed to willing to do that, you may have to register but if you are an AMA member you kind of already are.

Actually, they do. Using recent press releases of Scan Eagle activities, an <55lb aircraft with exceptional BLOS capability. At least 4 areas have been well represented thus far; SAR, pipeline and oil field inspection, rail way inspections, wild fire oversight, and marine mammal research. All of those things have been widely reported, to the point of media saturation. I should add the media has reported extremely favorably for them but generally negative for us. That's not good when taking a broad view of the industry. That unit, and others from people like Aerovironment, easily fall into the class of aircraft commonly viewed as "model aircraft". All of them can be operated visually and far beyond visual range. Most of the operations are being conducted at altitudes our multirotors can easily reach, and can provide video equal to or far superior to what we generate in many cases. Bear in mind that all of the companies that have developed and operate such aircraft have voiced their intent to capture a portion, or all, of the markets out MR's currently function in.

You used an extremely descriptive phase when you stated "to date". That's the problem, they have yet to achieve that claim to infamy-yet. It's coming and that such is true is easily discernible when reading user posts about rules and regulations on other forums, and viewing the constant posting of aerial videos filmed by such people at places like You Tube. A lot of MR users are not doing those that operate responsibly any favors. There actually have been a lot of accidents, some again widely reported in the media, but for the most part we've been lucky. They haven't managed to hit anyone and cause serious injury thus far. With the exception of the child's eye of course. There have been a couple of minor injuries to bystanders reported in various places around the world, but those have been relatively minor since they struck the bystanders on the top of their heads. The original video that initiated this thread established there was no safe "out" for the MR in use had anything unplanned happened. Never anticipate that any flight is going to go perfectly. Always have a plan in place to deal with what can go wrong. A good looking video is nice and promotes the company but that same video can easily establish proof of recklessness, as was the case with the original video, and generate decisions by potential clients not to use the aerial outfit due to lack of safety practices. It's a tough world out there and keeping track of all the angles is a difficult thing to do, but that's what a business owner takes on when they open their doors for customer revenue.

We can't allow ourselves to be blinded by personal desires and hopes for unfettered operation of our aircraft. We have to always look at the big picture and review not just how we might be impacted, but also how we might impact everything and everyone else. That's not being politically correct, it's being responsible. A bunch of kids playing softball in the street is a fun and innocent thing, right up until the ball goes through the window of a house that borders the street, or the windshield of a car in a driveway. The short view had the kids only having some innocent fun, the longer view established they didn't think things through before initiating their actions. We expect this from kids, but not from adults. Unfortunately too many of those participating in what we do are still mentally, if not also physically, children.
 
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Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
It seems that many of us here are actually in agreement. But this is not surprising, considering that most here on MRF have taken the time to research, build quality into our craft and have a responsible attitude about what they are capable of.

I have to agree with @Old Man though. The fact that the stats "to date" don't yet include horrible disasters by no means proves that they will not eventually include such events. The sales numbers alone, increasing as they are, make it more and more likely.

While I don't feel that all lawn mowers should be regulated, I do feel that if they were capable of being airborne, likely to find themselves over traffic or interfering with airspace - hell yes I'd agree to some regulation.

The argument that it hasn't happened "yet" is discounting the simple existence of stupidity. Each and every drone owner to date may not be cursed with lack of intelligence and common sense - but that doesn't mean the next sale won't be to some dingbat who has no concept of consequence.
 

violetwolf

Member
I missed the lampoonig you mentioned after going and re reading things. If you are referring to my post, I was in complete agreement with you and meant nothing to be taken sarcastically or in a bad way.

Oh, very sorry Feng. I thought you were being sarcastic. My bad for sure. Sometimes it's difficult to interpret emotions on the www. Apologies for sure. :)
 

Old Man

Active Member
The argument that it hasn't happened "yet" is discounting the simple existence of stupidity. Each and every drone owner to date may not be cursed with lack of intelligence and common sense - but that doesn't mean the next sale won't be to some dingbat who has no concept of consequence.

There's adequate evidence to support that such a dingbat has already made the purchase, but has thus far failed to execute (or be reported as executed) in a manner that eliminated any doubt. I fear that perhaps the child's eye event is only the first of what will become many. In the beginning manned aviation had very little impact of the population at large, but had considerable impact on the pilots of the aircraft. Multirotors in the hands of the general population will function in reverse. The logic is undeniable.
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
There's adequate evidence to support that such a dingbat has already made the purchase, but has thus far failed to execute (or be reported as executed) in a manner that eliminated any doubt. I fear that perhaps the child's eye event is only the first of what will become many. In the beginning manned aviation had very little impact of the population at large, but had considerable impact on the pilots of the aircraft. Multirotors in the hands of the general population will function in reverse. The logic is undeniable.

Oh, I've seen more than enough already to convince ME :)
 

Av8Chuck

Member
Its been a while since I posted here, what a place to start...

After watching the original video and reading this thread, I'm a bit surprised at the reaction. Most of the flight appeared to be on the side of the freeway and the overpass, except for where it turned the corner, chances are that if something happened it probably would not have landed in traffic. I'm not saying that I would have done this but i'm certainly not going to excoriate the person who did.

For anyone who watches TV you'll see a huge increase of this type of shot in commercials, etc., not all shot with drones but the idea that somehow shooting from a full sized helicopter would be safer because it can autorotate is disingenuous. I'm a helicopter pilot and I only saw a few parking lots that I might have made in an emergency but I wouldn't be able to crap for a week after riding down two tons of fun...

We need to be careful that we don't conflate the issues of full sized aircraft, commercial and hobbyist drone usage. Yes full size aircraft are in some aspects over engineered, over regulated, expensive to maintain and operate and far more dangerous than most drones. More people have been killed by certified helicopters than civilian drones. For that matter more people have been killed this year as a result of taking a selfie than by a civil drone in the past seven years. Thirteen selfie disasters if your counting..

Regarding idiots on YouTube, they're there, and they will always be there, you can't regulate stupidity. No matter what the regulations, the certification, the training or licensing, people have a first amendment right to share their ignorance on Youtube. The only thing that will stop the proliferation of stupid aerial videos is when you become a cliche for posting it. If that video had been posted three years ago most of us would have emailed to ask him how he did it. It wouldn't have been any more or less safe then.

Companies like Aerovironment (and other defense department contractors) are certainly interested in the civil sUAS market, but they have a problem. Those companies basically charged the DoD $250K+ for a $2500 foamy and $70K for a quad made from PVC so they are now restricted to selling their products in the civilian market at the DoD price. If they sell them for less the DoD is going to come a knocking to ask for their money back.. Aerovironment just sold a bunch more overpriced planes to the Marines for $15M. Which means that the PO for a civilian drone has to be at least $15M before they ship a single civilian drone.
 

Vermiform

Member
Its been a while since I posted here, what a place to start...

After watching the original video and reading this thread, I'm a bit surprised at the reaction. Most of the flight appeared to be on the side of the freeway and the overpass, except for where it turned the corner, chances are that if something happened it probably would not have landed in traffic. I'm not saying that I would have done this but i'm certainly not going to excoriate the person who did.

For anyone who watches TV you'll see a huge increase of this type of shot in commercials, etc., not all shot with drones but the idea that somehow shooting from a full sized helicopter would be safer because it can autorotate is disingenuous. I'm a helicopter pilot and I only saw a few parking lots that I might have made in an emergency but I wouldn't be able to crap for a week after riding down two tons of fun...

We need to be careful that we don't conflate the issues of full sized aircraft, commercial and hobbyist drone usage. Yes full size aircraft are in some aspects over engineered, over regulated, expensive to maintain and operate and far more dangerous than most drones. More people have been killed by certified helicopters than civilian drones. For that matter more people have been killed this year as a result of taking a selfie than by a civil drone in the past seven years. Thirteen selfie disasters if your counting..

Regarding idiots on YouTube, they're there, and they will always be there, you can't regulate stupidity. No matter what the regulations, the certification, the training or licensing, people have a first amendment right to share their ignorance on Youtube. The only thing that will stop the proliferation of stupid aerial videos is when you become a cliche for posting it. If that video had been posted three years ago most of us would have emailed to ask him how he did it. It wouldn't have been any more or less safe then.

Companies like Aerovironment (and other defense department contractors) are certainly interested in the civil sUAS market, but they have a problem. Those companies basically charged the DoD $250K+ for a $2500 foamy and $70K for a quad made from PVC so they are now restricted to selling their products in the civilian market at the DoD price. If they sell them for less the DoD is going to come a knocking to ask for their money back.. Aerovironment just sold a bunch more overpriced planes to the Marines for $15M. Which means that the PO for a civilian drone has to be at least $15M before they ship a single civilian drone.

I'm kinda leaning this way too. I feel more latitude should be given for "FAA brand" certified pilots......
 

Old Man

Active Member
Chuck,

Really great to see you back!!!:)

Chuck raises a good point about "stupid". It can be found in every walk of life and will always be readily available for view. However, I disagree with him on one point. My experiences have a well maintained full scale anything more reliable than a well maintained multirotor. Until we start seeing higher quality components made available that status is not likely to change. We have yet to establish useful life cycles for the various parts used on our aircraft and so have no idea of how much time they can accumulate before failure can be anticipated.
 

Old Man

Active Member
Companies like Aerovironment (and other defense department contractors) are certainly interested in the civil sUAS market, but they have a problem. Those companies basically charged the DoD $250K+ for a $2500 foamy and $70K for a quad made from PVC so they are now restricted to selling their products in the civilian market at the DoD price. If they sell them for less the DoD is going to come a knocking to ask for their money back.. Aerovironment just sold a bunch more overpriced planes to the Marines for $15M. Which means that the PO for a civilian drone has to be at least $15M before they ship a single civilian drone.

OTH, how does it all work out if people like Aerovironment manage to stack the rule deck with the feds to assure standards used for thier types of equipment are applicable to all aerial equipment?;)
 


Av8Chuck

Member
Chuck,

Really great to see you back!!!:)

Chuck raises a good point about "stupid". It can be found in every walk of life and will always be readily available for view. However, I disagree with him on one point. My experiences have a well maintained full scale anything more reliable than a well maintained multirotor. Until we start seeing higher quality components made available that status is not likely to change. We have yet to establish useful life cycles for the various parts used on our aircraft and so have no idea of how much time they can accumulate before failure can be anticipated.

Glad to be back. I agree that a "well maintained" helicopter can be more reliable however, that doesn't actually make it safer, the type of mission plays an important part in this and for the most part the drone operator isn't responsible for development of the commercial drone they fly. In the case of the OP we don't know what drone they used so beyond generalities we don't know the condition of it.

Its really up the manufacturers to provide better quality systems for commercial use. Happy to say that we're making real progress in developing commercial grade components...

Have you heard from David?
 


Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Not to continue with the bashing of Bob, but what really tweaks my 'tennae (just made that up, feel free to use it! :) ) is the disparity in mindsets between full scale and RC fliers. The full scale adage "I know some old pilots and some bold pilots but no old, bold pilots" didn't become an adage because it's so untrue or doesn't reflect on the realities of full scale flying but we see all of the time that it's ok to be a bold sUAS pilot. Problem is, you can screw up all day long and live to be an old, bold sUAS pilot but along the way you might hurt others. Discounting safety concerns as a product of the industrial machine keeping smaller players under control is a bit disingenuous, IMHO, and doesn't offer to the full scale community an appreciation of what taking to the sky really requires in the way of personal responsibility.

The regulators have this on their radar and as we discuss it, and as the less responsible amongst us take to the skies and to the headlines, the rules are being drafted to reflect that impulses we can't control as a community will be managed via the pen with, if nothing else, legal consequences for those bent on being bold sUAS pilots.
 
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Old Man

Active Member
Interesting thoughts and blend a little with a conversation I had with a couple of California Highway Patrol officers I had last night while helping a neighbor with a broke down vehicle on the highway. One of them was interested in obtaining a "drone" that he could fit a Go Pro to, but didn't have a clue which way to go, while the other was interested in existing regulations that governed drone use in California. Neither had any foundation for what is or is not legal. We had a good night and I think both of them came away better informed after a rather extended street corner conversation. They liked the part how the FAA didn't want them going out and busting people, instead taking names and making reports for the feds to follow up on when the situation warranted. They did get a fair explanation of what constituted an unsafe or reckless operations to better qualify/justify an action, and a description of what constituted a legal commercial activity. What I found interesting was their mention of how it was a lot easier to prosecute for this kind of stuff at the federal level instead of the local. They also learned that shooting and aircraft out of the sky was a violation of federal law. Since it's a very rural area they had serious concerns about people doing that and how to handle such a situation.
 

Str8 Up

Member

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