High Speed Filming

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I was looking for some footage from a servo-based camera gimbal (it's complicated, don't ask) and remember that Copterkids used to fly the old PhotoshipOne gimbals on helis back in the day, so I checked that out. While watching this video:


it struck me, and I commented "some of the scenes you still can't get with a multirotor, such as the bike jump at 1:19"

And then I was immediately challenged. Why?

That thing has to be doing at least 60 mph, maybe 80 mph or more? And this isn't a diving shot either, he's actually CLIMBING. I can't recall ever seeing something like that from a multirotor. This is a large machine carrying a real camera, not a little racer.

Claims were made about a 500-class quadcopter doing 100mph with a camera and gimbal on-board, which I don't believe. Closest I can see is actually the Inspire2 with claimed top speed of 80mph I think? The Inspire1 was 55mph right?

I said a quadcopter can only do 100mph full power straight down. To which the response was " there are many multies that can do this"

I tried to investigate further. Altura Zenith, rate at 72 km/h. Aeronavics, 70 km/h. I can't find a top speed on the Freefly Alta. Anybody have it? I saw one videographer saying things started to get a bit shaky above 15 m/s.

What about custom rigs? Anybody got something that could do this? Any examples?

You gotta admit, that is an amazing shot, and for 2012, it's just incredible what those guys achieved. It's not the typical scene, where the bike jumps past the drone, with maybe the drone following at half speed. The helicopter kept up with the bike the whole way, while CLIMBING.
 

theGreenOrange

theGreenOrange

Member
R_Lefebvre said:
I was looking for some footage from a servo-based camera gimbal (it's complicated, don't ask) and remember that Copterkids used to fly the old PhotoshipOne gimbals on helis back in the day, so I checked that out. While watching this video:


it struck me, and I commented "some of the scenes you still can't get with a multirotor, such as the bike jump at 1:19"

And then I was immediately challenged. Why?

That thing has to be doing at least 60 mph, maybe 80 mph or more? And this isn't a diving shot either, he's actually CLIMBING. I can't recall ever seeing something like that from a multirotor. This is a large machine carrying a real camera, not a little racer.

Claims were made about a 500-class quadcopter doing 100mph with a camera and gimbal on-board, which I don't believe. Closest I can see is actually the Inspire2 with claimed top speed of 80mph I think? The Inspire1 was 55mph right?

I said a quadcopter can only do 100mph full power straight down. To which the response was " there are many multies that can do this"

I tried to investigate further. Altura Zenith, rate at 72 km/h. Aeronavics, 70 km/h. I can't find a top speed on the Freefly Alta. Anybody have it? I saw one videographer saying things started to get a bit shaky above 15 m/s.

What about custom rigs? Anybody got something that could do this? Any examples?

You gotta admit, that is an amazing shot, and for 2012, it's just incredible what those guys achieved. It's not the typical scene, where the bike jumps past the drone, with maybe the drone following at half speed. The helicopter kept up with the bike the whole way, while CLIMBING.
Click to expand...

The slow motion shots are impressive. However, I assume you were "challenged" due to the fact that you began with an assumption, and provided no facts regarding the top speed of the heli. The bike looks like it was going about 45mph in my opinion. I don't see anything there that a multi-rotor couldn't do.
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Well, I would agree that a multirotor can do 45mph. But I'd disagree that the bike is doing 45mph. I'll check with some experts.

I know my UAV helis are easily capable of 75mph loaded with equipment. And those tend to be underpowered.
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
To try to keep this factual, what I'm looking for is evidence of any large multirotors capable of flying with a camera at more than say, 50mph. I can't find any.
 

theGreenOrange

theGreenOrange

Member
Sorry, my knowledge is limited to racing quads. I used to ride motorcyles too (not dirtbikes though) which is why I felt I could chime in.
 



seattle_helo

seattle_helo

Member
Single rotor machines certainly enjoy a speed and efficiency advantage over multi-rotors. It is a shame they collect dust now. Just too many practical issues doomed them. Brutal to travel with and less safe on set top that list. Not to mention they require skill and true competence to fly- the antithesis of the DJI culture we have now.

I've had an Alta8 at 52mph for about ten seconds. That's the fastest I've ever had one, and that speed isn't sustainable for any kind of long duration. Very high current draw with a gimbal attached. Unless the camera is looking behind the direction of motion or slightly to the sides it would not be a usable shot since the tilt of the machine puts at least two booms in frame. A front mount SRH would win this contest any day- higher sustained speed and much wider field of view.

Another factor is that the gimbals we used back then had way more torque. The stability was horrible with servo gimbals but high speed shots were trivial in terms of camera hold strength. Most current brushless gimbals with pro camera packages can not operate at speeds above 30mph without wilting in the pan axis when the lens is perpendicular to the direction of motion. The new movi pro and shotover U1g are the only brushless gimbals for UAS I'm aware of that can handle that kind of loading.
 

violetwolf

violetwolf

Member
I've managed to squeeze about 40mph out of my Famous Hobby gimbal (with Phobotic card) chasing cars, with the lens pointed out the side. I was actually quite shocked. (Canon 5d with a small / light 24mm on it.) I do agree with you on all counts though. Good post!
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Ah, I wasn't notified about these latest posts.

Yes, the "practical" issues are a long-standing perception with SRH's, but I don't think they really apply anymore.

Difficult to travel with, I'm not sure I'd agree was ever the case? IMO, they are easier to travel with as they can easily fold up into a long thin box. And the folding doesn't involve any wires to get pinched or connections to get loose. It really is a toss-up between my 800 heli and my Tarot X8. One is a long thin rectangle, the other is a huge cube.

Skill, yes, used to be true but only because helis pre-dated the modern flight-controllers we now use. Definitely is not the case anymore. I'm using Ardupilot on my Procyon 800 Heli. It is just as easy to fly as a multirotor. Actually more so, because it just flies so much better then a comparable multirotor. Less concern. Easy to fly? Check this, this is basically hands-off take-off. Then just kinda pushing it around with the stick in GPS mode.


Safety... I don't know about that either. A helicopter or a large Octocopter can both kill you dead. I think to a large degree the idea that multirotors are "safe" is over-confidence. I would love to show you a video I have a large X8 having a very mild, low-energy crash, and it did more damage to the dirt than my helis do. But it's under NDA. Comparing helis to large multirotors is really arguing about which would "kill you deader".

I really want to try a good old fashioned servo gimbal with a camera with really good internal image stabilization. Like Sony Boss. The servo gimbal does the pointing with high torque and reliability. Then the camera removes the remaining jitter.

I believe this is what the large heli gimbals are doing. They call it 5-axis stabilization.
 

seattle_helo

seattle_helo

Member
I've had nitro's, gassers and now all electric and turbine, including a 2m rotor machine. I've been flying SRH since 1982- I know a little about them. Clearly we have a significant difference of opinion. They are less safe, way more vibe prone, harder to tune to perfection and for sure more temperamental to travel with. One tweak to a torque tube by a hard jolt by baggage handlers and you're F'ed for your job.

Frankly, the masses flying multis around via GPS assist is scary enough as it is. Allowing the same functionality with a SRH is orders of magnitude more dangerous if any GPS failure or anomaly occurs and they don't actually know how to fly and recover.

Yes, the big boys are all 5 axis or more. The GSS guys have a smaller unit that's almost practical for UAS use. I agree the Sony BOSS is amazing, but it's a very limited, closed system with few lens choices that few DPs would want for typical production.
 

R

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Intent wasn't to make a VS thread. Really just wanted to know if any multirotor could get that shot. And I think we have concluded No.

I have no tail boom problems anymore. Direct drive tail motor.

The safety thing, IMO, anybody who thinks a large multi is safe.... You're kidding yourself.

I'm not biased against multis. I fly both equally. They all have different strengths. If you don't need the flight performance of a helicopter, a multi is just easier.
 


Av8Chuck

Av8Chuck

Member
Also, one thins that I don't think has been pointed out is that the guys who did those shots are good, really good. I doubt very many people could get those shots with either platform.

There's still a need for an "all-the-above strategy" for aerial filming. It depends on what your shooting. Your not likely to get approval to fly a SRH in close proximity to talent. Whether right or wrong, the perception of most people is that MR's are much safer and tend to trust them more, so the role of SRH's has been lessoned there. Maned helicopters are still the best aerial platform when it comes to higher airspeeds, ability to zoom in on a close up with long lenses, and can generally "get the shot" much faster. A common misconception is that MR's and SRH's are less expensive than manned aircraft, that depends. On some productions you might have a location and crew that costs in excess of $200K per day, for every minute your waiting for the drone to arm, or have to do more retakes because the director isn't confident that the workflow provided the needed shot adds to the expense/frustration.

Our Y6 can carry an AUW of 36lbs @ %50. I don't see why it couldn't carry a GH4 at 50+ mph. Do I know that it will? No. Will I ever test it? No, because I'd never sell it to accomplish that. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all drone despite what DJI wants people to believe...
 

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