Design considerations for an aerial photography platform.

jes1111

Active Member
@ jess111 - sorry , mis understanding my friend - the x8 with motor pairs rotating in the SAME direction has redundancy, in that if one fails, you double the speed of the good one to get the same thrust and tourque, so the system remains stable.

In a x8 with counter rotating motors, and the Y6 with the same, i dont see how the redundancy would work, as when you loose one motor, and speed the other up to compensate, you have a massive tourque issue ?, or do you not ? i dont know as havent tested it, will be testing a x8 with a dead motor this week

The electronics/software doesn't really understand or care what configuration your motors are in, or even how many there are. When you set it up, all you're telling it is how to turn left, how to pitch forwards, how to yaw right, etc. That's it. The control system is entirely "dumb" about how it uses that information - it just keeps on measuring the craft's attitude, issuing motor throttle changes to compensate (using the "look-up table" that you gave it when you configured it, then measuring the attitude, recomputing the motor throttle changes, etc. So when a motor fails (for example) the electronics is absolutely unaware that anything has changed. It just keeps on... measuring, computing, commanding, then measuring again. Let's say it's a flat-8 that's lost a motor. Now it has four CW and only 3 CCW engines, so it's going to want to yaw to the right (since the net torque effect will be CW). The electronics will sense the yaw (without knowing or caring what's causing it) and compute that it should increase the throttle on the CCW engines. The correction will happen slower than if there were 4 engines, but it will happen. Similarly, if the wind causes a roll, the correction will happen, just more slowly. Same with pitch. The danger comes when the craft's measured attitude requires simultaneous yaw, roll and pitch correction, all in the direction in which it's "weak" because of the missing engine . There's a chance that the craft will "get away" from the electronics, get so far out of attitude that the electronics decide that drastic full throttle corrections are required. Now you're in the hands of the quad gods: it might settle down, it might flip.

This works exactly the same way with a flat-8 or a coax-8, whether the motor pairs are spinning in the same direction or opposite. It's also the same with a flat-6 or a coax-6, except that because the relative loss of control is greater (1 out of 6 rather than 1 out of 8) it's more likely to get out of control, and quicker. But on a good day it's still possible to get it to the ground in a reasonably dignified way. On a quad the loss of control (1 out of 4) is so great that it will "get away from" the electronics almost immediately.

None of the current systems employ what's called "adaptive" behaviour. They don't know that a motor is stopped or a prop has broken and they have no notion of speeding up healthy engines to compensate for a dead one or switching off engines to restore the net torque effect to zero. To be able to do so they'd need two-way communication with the ESCs, predictive monitoring of engine rpm, etc - none of which is possible with current off-the-shelf RC parts. More advanced projects like OpenPilot will get there sooner or later. MK and the like, I'm not so sure.

Let's not forget also that this "redundancy" covers only a very small percentage of the possible problems that could bring your flight to a sudden end. The MK I2C ESCs, for example - one fails and they'll all shut down - hence the PWM converters that have appeared recently. Batteries can fail catastrophically. The main board can fail. Connectors can come undone. Fatigued aluminium arms can fail in flight. Whatever took one engine out can take a second one out, or take the whole system out. So as an operator you simply cannot rely on this theoretical, "best case" redundancy. Nice to know it's there, but it's no substitute for good components, good maintenance, good piloting, etc. And it certainly should not be the primary reason for choosing a particular number of engines or a particular frame style - with the single exception (perhaps) of NOT choosing 4 engines if crashing is likely to happen with an expensive camera onboard or anywhere near people).

Phew! Lecture over! ;-)
 

whoisthedaddy

150th Member!!
Another aspect is that we can lengthen the odds of failure by building more reliable craft. Better engines, better ESCs, better frame, better batteries, better soldering, better maintenance, etc. A well-built, well-maintained craft with quality components is, IMO, better insurance than two more engines.

Absolutely agree with your point on maintenance and quality but even with these things do go wrong occasionally - just look at real aircraft. Coming from the plane world there is the luxury of knowing that at least the thing glides if you lose the engine, with helis there is auto-rotation, with MR there is no safety net!

On the principle that something, at some time, is going to go wrong I have also been thinking of ways of recovering from such a situation. The only possible thing that I can think of is a parachute based solution remotely operated on a spare channel (of course this wouldn't help in the event of tx failure!).

It would be fairly straightforward and light to construct (the parachute material in tube with compressed air switch used to 'fire' it) - similar in fact to the bits used for a model plane retractable undercarriage,

How effective this would be I have no idea and I suspect there would be little time to trigger it before crunch time.

On that basis, I discounted a recovery solution (for the moment) and was looking at making all the other systems more reliable and redundant (where possible).
 


matwelli

Member
@ whoisthedaddy - parachute - set a failsafe servo position on your reciever (most decent systems can) for the 'chute servo, taht way, loose TX, the chute deploys, also have it so it cuts throttle
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
@ whoisthedaddy - parachute - set a failsafe servo position on your reciever (most decent systems can) for the 'chute servo, taht way, loose TX, the chute deploys, also have it so it cuts throttle
Like the sounds of that parachute thingy.. So Mattwell will we see a build thread on your website?
Lee, if you have not been on Matwells site go check out the build thread on the little quad.. IT IS VERY GOOD. It may be good to build up one of these as a trial run and to get airborne reletivley cheaply. Matwell, what the cost of one of them kits? with forum member discount ! I am really tempted to build one.. a Y6 of course!
 

matwelli

Member
@droider - thanks for that, but for you guys, best bet is to go to www.kkmulticopter.kr directly instead of shiping all the way from me . the kits from there are very re-configurable, Minsoo has done a great job.

For something a little bit nicer, and not much more expensive, hit up Jakub at www.quadframe.com , have sold 6 of his, very nicely made, but not reconfigurable, each one has purpose made parts, they are made in Poland.

I will have my own ones available in a few weeks, just sorting out the waterjet cutting :)

Yes, will def be doing build threads on the two X8's on this forum, going away for two days, then as soon as the motors arrive will get stuck in, plus i need to build myself a "beater" multicopter, something i can fly for fun, as my current quad is a test bed for a customers ardupilot.

no sure what i will build for myself, droiders Y6 looks good , the Y4 i didnt like (weak yaw control), maybe a good, honest, lightweight quad.
 



jes1111

Active Member
Is it not better to use props with different pitch when they are top and bottom, or is that urban legend?

Theoretically, yes. In reality it may or may not have the desired effect (to improve efficiency of lower prop) - it all comes down to the particular design of the particular props that you're using, both top and bottom as well as the particular spacing between the two and the total loading on the props. It should not be adopted as an idea without testing - try different pairings top and bottom and measure - unfortunately there are still very few options to choose from, especially on bigger props.
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
this is very hard to explain without being in front of a chalk board but the theory behind contra-rotating props and why the rear (lower in our case) prop has different pitch comes from the effect that the front (upper in our case) has on the air it expels onto the rear props. the air being drawn into the upper props on our multi-kopters approaches more or less perpendicular to the plane of the propeller. as it's expelled it's rotating so it now has direction different from how it entered. this directional quality remains as it's being drawn into the second prop so the second prop is experiencing a different airflow than the first. that airflow and the fact that it's hitting the prop from a different direction requires the pitch of the prop to be altered. the goal is to optimize the thrust the prop is making given the directional nature of the airflow. according to my rough sketch of what's happening, i'd say the lower props need to have higher pitch than the upper props. the higher pitch will actually be reduced by the fact that the airflow isn't hitting the props straight on and so the higher pitch prop will deliver similar thrust to the lower pitch upper props. in other words, they'll both effectively have the same pitch. using the same pitch on top and bottom means you're underutilizing the lower motors since the props are being pitch-reduced by the airflow from the upper props.
Did any of that make sense? :confused::confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra-rotating_propellers
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Filmed this today.. thought it may be of interest in this thead

 
Last edited by a moderator:


Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
i've been thinking about this some more and have a thought for conversation. as far a surviving a motor failure goes, when a flat eight loses a motor there are always two remaining for pitch or roll so you're only losing 1/3 of what you had on that side. with a coaxial 8, if you lose one, you're losing half of your lift on that side. so if you have to firewall your throttle you've got half the lift working for you on the failed side while the other side is going full bore. to compensate you'll feed in full roll to compensate but just how much of the lift differential will that alleviate? there's a question of yaw as well so that will pull out some lift somewhere as it attempts to do what you're asking of it.
i'm not sure what the consequence is of all this but the differences in layout sure make for some interesting mental gymnastics trying to get it figured out.
 

whoisthedaddy

150th Member!!
Thanks to everyone for some very interesting posts, it looks to me like there is no such thing as a perfect design, there will always be compromises with different solutions and it is picking the compromises that you can live with and those that you can't.

For me, having read through all the posts so far, I have decided that I first need a 'general purpose' craft. This MR needs to handle normal summer flying conditions here in the UK - i.e. not always calm!. In future, when I have learnt (and earnt!) more I can build variants for specific things!. Here is what I have decided so far and the reasons why...

FRAME DESIGN
Thanks to the post (lecture :)) from Jes1111 my first MR will not have 4 engines but 6 or 8 to reduce the speed and possibility of a flip on motor / prop / ESC failure. The Y configuration whilst not perhaps totally efficient does make sense to me for the reasons below and does seem a good all rounder.

  • the forward view it supports allows for a wider / clearer camera angle.
  • the frame construction is less complex than an Octo and there is less to break / go wrong.
  • it supports 6 engines and is therefore less likely to roll in event of engine problem.
  • 6 engines represents a good compromise on complexity and cost vs. lifting ability.
  • it is heaver than 4 motor configurations providing mass to make it more stable in windier conditions.
  • It will be easier to fly given its physical shape to know which way is forward!!
  • good resilience to wind (although I'm not quite sure why - I suspect less props than an Octo to be affected by wind but also the angle of the frame arms to the roll axis. (I'm still thinking about this theory but the 120 degree frame angle means that not all lift (either from sideways wind action or indeed prop thrust is translated into roll - only the component of force that is at 90 degrees to the roll axis - not sure I can explain this properly yet!),
Given then that I want 6 or 8 engines and I think a Y frame is a good compromise, the only option is a Y6. Although I am worried about the coax motor configuration because I don't understand the complexities of airflow from the top prop through to the bottom, it certainly appears to work and make sense to me because of the near zero effect of torque on the frame arm for less vibration. For me this is a platform for aerial photography (not just flying around for fun) and therefore lack of vibration is key.

ELECTRONICS
Given the experience and comments I have received I now won't be going for the Hoverfly Pro but am still not yet totally convinced about the MK gear. I have looked at OpenPilot and others and but need this to be as 'professional' as possible. I am from the computer industry originally and out of principle don't want anything with a version number ending in zero, certainly nothing that is going high with a lot of weight under it! The MK site doesn't really do them any favours at all but their equipment does come highly recommended - and importantly there looks like a lot of expertise here! Interestingly I also stumbled across the FY-91Q which whilst not released yet, does look good and has some interesting features. http://shop.fyetech.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=43.
I am going to look in detail at the MK site but I would be interested in any thoughts on the FY-91Q. Although it sounds good I don't want to be using unproven hardware, certainly in the flight control system!

FLIGHT RECOVERY
I am going to look more into the parachute based system as it seems pretty straightforward to construct,
Personally I don't intend to fly aerobatics so if the craft is at a roll or pitch angle in excess of 60/70 degrees then it is in trouble!. Ideally this would use the gyros etc in the electronics but a couple of simple mercury switches would suffice and be enough to trigger the shutting down of the motors and fire a recovery system. I also liked the idea of the transmitter fail safe servo position.

Thanks for all your help and advice so far - getting there but still need to look at MK, motors, ESCs and camera mounts now!

Lee.

 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Interestingly I also stumbled across the FY-91Q which whilst not released yet, does look good and has some interesting features.

Lee,
A major lesson to learn is that they all look good before they're released. Even the MK firmware updates get everybody all a-goo-goo but then peoples' multi's start flipping and flying away and it's all sad eyes until someone figures it out.
I started this site because I want more options for us and a place where we can discuss them but don't get caught in the trap of thinking the next new thing is going to be just as good as the best stuff that's currently out there. There's a chance it will be, but there's a chance it won't and we've seen that more often than not, it won't.
There's a lot of marketing effort spent on stuff that can barely hover. It's whacky but it happens.
Someone from the OpenPilot group just joined a day or two ago. Hopefully he'll post a status update for everyone to read.
Great summary by the way. Good luck with your build.
Regards,
Bart
 

Droider

Drone Enthusiast
Lee. I think its very wise to invest in a cheap no frills MR to get going on. I still use my Gaui for practice and to remind myself how good my MK ADX3 really is!

I see quadcopter uk have a little Xcraft 450 and the Lotus for a really quick stater

http://www.quadcopters.co.uk/?PageID=ShowItem&Item=X450&Desc=XAircraft X450 Quadcopter

http://www.quadcopters.co.uk/?PageID=ShowItem&Item=T580&Desc=Lotus T580 Quadcopter (latest version)


Interesting perspective for sure.............any onboard footage or stills from your recent exploits ?

Oh yep... got some amazing stuff to try and show how stable the Y6 is.. Biking today so Ill try and put it together over the next day or 2
 

jes1111

Active Member
this is very hard to explain without being in front of a chalk board but the theory behind contra-rotating props and why the rear (lower in our case) prop has different pitch comes from the effect that the front (upper in our case) has on the air it expels onto the rear props. the air being drawn into the upper props on our multi-kopters approaches more or less perpendicular to the plane of the propeller. as it's expelled it's rotating so it now has direction different from how it entered. this directional quality remains as it's being drawn into the second prop so the second prop is experiencing a different airflow than the first. that airflow and the fact that it's hitting the prop from a different direction requires the pitch of the prop to be altered. the goal is to optimize the thrust the prop is making given the directional nature of the airflow. according to my rough sketch of what's happening, i'd say the lower props need to have higher pitch than the upper props. the higher pitch will actually be reduced by the fact that the airflow isn't hitting the props straight on and so the higher pitch prop will deliver similar thrust to the lower pitch upper props. in other words, they'll both effectively have the same pitch. using the same pitch on top and bottom means you're underutilizing the lower motors since the props are being pitch-reduced by the airflow from the upper props.
Did any of that make sense? :confused::confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra-rotating_propellers

Not quite how I understood it. Contra-rotating props on an aircraft are (usually) utilising a single engine and the two propellers are synchronised. This is very different from our situation where we have two engines and no sync between the two.

Blade pitch is quite analogous to gearing on a car. The pitch element of a propeller's geometry is designed to account for the forward airspeed of the craft. High speed fixed wing craft need a high-pitch propeller so that they are able to accelerate air that is already moving very fast. A low speed aircraft only needs a low-pitch propeller - hence the APC propellers that we use being called "slow flyers" - they are optimised for low-speed fixed-wing flight. And therein lies our biggest problem - the forward airspeed of a multirotor at hover (generally the condition for which we want to optimise) is zero. Ideally therefore we want a helicopter blade - constant chord, no twist and (at hover) low pitch. Things get more complex in a coax pair - the operating conditions for the top propeller are the same, but the bottom propeller is operating in the airflow from the top blade, effectively the same as a low forward airspeed, hence we'd want a higher pitched blade.

Several factors tend to skew this theoretical solution, though. Fixed wing blades have twist, i.e. their pitch is not constant along their length (it decreases towards the outside tip), they bend when loaded and they produce vortices (the tangential airflow you refer to). So combine two blades that should theoretically work efficiently together (at a particular spacing) and you might be unlucky to encounter a sort of "harmonic" incompatibility between the two. And since they are not synced, as a pair their "sum efficiency" will tend to drift randomly.

So combining two fixed-wing blades is always a compromise - what we really need is some clever scientists to sit down and design the ideal blade combo for two unsynced engines. If they did, the resulting blades would look like helicopter blades, of course ;-) The only reason we don't already use helicopter blades is because we can't get CW/CWW pairs. Something close to what we want is available on toy coaxial helicopters, but they tend to be too flexible (they wouldn't take the loading). So-called "3D blades" for helicopters have a symmetrical airfoil, i.e. they can operate upside down. So we could theoretically cut down some 3D blades, make up two fixed hubs (one for CW, one for CCW) and we'd be in business!
 

jes1111

Active Member
There are several OpenPilot members here already, myself included ;-)

One of the primary drivers in the OpenPilot project is to "get it right" and not release anything to market until it is. Being completely non-profit removes the commercial pressure to release early and use customers as beta testers. So you can be sure that when v1.0 of OpenPilot does release, it will be a highly capable and thoroughly tested piece of kit. Because of this there is no current estimate on when it will be released - just "it will be released when it's ready".

CopterControl is a sub-set of OpenPilot, a single-board product without the GPS-driven position-hold, come home and waypoint type features that the full OpenPilot product will have, i.e. it's a low-cost but very capable "manual" flight system. This is in "dev release" right now so market release should be not far off.
 


Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
jes1111,
i've been through the prop-wonder analysis you've outlined and have a box of blades in the basement as a result. i've got a little project i call Son-of-Okto which i intend to finish one day but the intent is to use helicopter blades but of a slightly larger scale than we've seen with propellers.
there's a company that makes flat bottomed helicopter blade material and it's pretty easy to add the hub material but last i checked they were out of stock and i never heard back from them. symmetrical blades are an option but you have to run a higher pitch to get thrust so then drag begins to factor in more.
it's all very interesting but i suspect that until it's profitable on a large scale we'll be stuck with what we have, which isn't all bad but i'd guess it's a good percentage away from optimum.
re.: the contra-rotating props, one engine or two the dynamics of the props are the same. the lower props are experiencing a different airflow pattern than the tops and the fix is to up-pitch the props. the wiki article actually encourages having non-identical props (2 blades, 3 blades, etc) to avoid compounding the system's vibrations so if we were to apply that we'd have 2 blades on top and 3's on the bottom. with a little time i could work it out. problem is, no time. but i digress.
thanks for the update on the openpilot program. we're looking forward to hearing more as it plays out.
 

Top