Advice upgrading from 3S - 4S on Custom Frame

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Hi All,

I am a beginner. However, I have been getting the hang of my quadcopter and it is fun to fly.

I bought it of a guy who has built it himself. It has a carbon frame and a Naza Lite controller. Makes it very stable for beginners in GPS Attitude Mode. When I lose control I just let it hover in order to get my orientation back.

The system is 3S and have got 2200 Mah Lipo's. Flight time is not great, about 6-8 minutes before warnings go off. So I went to the local shop here and they advised me to upgrade from 3S to 4S. They said that the engines are too small for the quad and that it is not efficient.

Indeed, I think that upgrading is a good idea, it also makes to quad more powerful and nimble.

I was a bit surprised by the price they communicated: 69 Euro per motor and 29 Euro per ESC. For 4 that adds up to 392 Euro (530 bucks). On Hobbyking and other online stores I see prices are a lot lower. Maybe not good quality stuff?

http://team-blacksheep.com/products/prod:900kv_30aesc looks like a nice kit and less expensive.

Anybody can advise me what I need I could buy to make my quad fast a nimble with a 4S system?

Quad.jpeg

photo1-1.jpg
 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
The jump to 4S is often a good move, but your choice depends on several factors.

What at is the current weight (without battery)? What is the weight that you will ultimately like to have the quad (camera, FPV etc?). What size props do you own? What type of ESC do you have now (often they can handle 4S, so you might not need to swap them out)?

There are plenty of decent motors that will handle the 4S batteries that are cheaper than the price you listed. Check into sunnysky - prices should be closer to $20-$30 USD.

The nano-tech batteries at hobby king are a good bang for the buck (euro).
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Thanks for your reply :tennis:

The quad weighs 952 grams without batteries. A Lipo 4S of 4500 Mah weighs about 500 grams. Total will be about 1.5kg.
Later on I will add camera and FPV material so that will increase the weight as well. So lets say about 1.7kg fully loaded.

I have read about the rule (weight X 2) / 4. In my case that will be between 850 and 900 grams thrust per motor.

In order to have a nimble copter I might look at these: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...00W_Brushless_Motor_short_shaft_version_.html.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance.
 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
I have no experience with those motors, so I can't say. You'll have to do some research and see what the reviews are. I recall hearing both good and bad things about them.

For 1700g quad you'd need to be able to have 1700g at 50% throttle, or 425g/motor at 50% throttle. I noticed that motor didn't have a spread sheet for showing the data at different throttle levels - so as you calculated, that looks to be 100% throttle. Ideally you'd have a breakout that also shows efficiency so that power is not transferred/wasted (as heat).

That frame looks rather small - so make sure that it will be able to handle almost double the weight. Also, remember that the lower Kv motors may (or may not) be heavier - so adjust your AUW to incorporate any motor you choose.
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
You are right I cannot see an efficiency graph saying how much is lost into heat. This is also an important factor for me as I want to increase my flight time.
I will try to google some reviews. The price is rather cheap. I can see that HobbyKing recommend the ESC for the motors. That is handy.
Do you have experience with other motors?

Cheers.
 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
Hood49 said:
You are right I cannot see an efficiency graph saying how much is lost into heat. This is also an important factor for me as I want to increase my flight time.
I will try to google some reviews. The price is rather cheap. I can see that HobbyKing recommend the ESC for the motors. That is handy.
Do you have experience with other motors?

Cheers.
Click to expand...

For me, the best balance between cost and quality has been the SunnySky motors. There are far more expensive motors, but for the build you have there - I think SunnySky would strike the right balance. Plenty of people have had good luck with the HobbyKing motors, but often the quality control is all over the map. When I have purchased HK motors (and ESCs too), I have always grabbed an extra of each in case one is defective.
 



PeteDee

PeteDee

Mr take no prisoners!
If you do a bit of research you will find most people do run them on 4S and they are fine.

Cheers

Pete
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Indeed, you are right. Lots of people are happy with running them in 4S. I can see that it is best to have 10' props.
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
I have ordered 4 Sunnysky X2212 980KV 180W Brushless Motors. I will try them first with my ESC that I am running on 3S on 4S.
Thanks for all the help guys. Keep you posted!
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
I have done some research and turns out that I currently have 16 amp ESC. That will not be enough I guess.
So I have ordered the Turnigy Multistar 30 Amp Multi-rotor Brushless ESC.
 

C

cootertwo

Member
It's official, "you are hooked" I might have suggested trying a 4cell battery first, before ordering anything. Run/fly it for a couple minutes, then check the temp of the motors and ESC's. Just feel with your hand, nothing special needed. If they are HOT, meaning you can't hold onto them for long, yes, you'll need to up-grade motors and ESC's. I've found that going from 3c to 4c ain't all that big a deal. It will have more rpm, so more lift, and will be quicker to respond to the throttle. What I'm trying to say is that if you can fly a 3c pack to it's cutoff point, with no overheating, you can probably go to 4c, no problem. Maybe drop a size/pitch prop, to compensate for the increased rpm. 3C = OK, 4C = WOW
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Indeed, I guess I am hooked :nevreness:

I had to change the motor in any case because the current are no good. I have heard so many good things about the Sunnysky's. I do not want to take any risks with the ESC. 16 is very low if you want to go to 4S I reckon.

I can read on the web that people flash the ESC. Do not really know if I need to do that. I also have no idea how to get this done. I guess I will have to do some more reading and testing :livid:

Next step will be ordering the Fatshark Teleporter V3. All you need is in the box apparently. I would love to fly FPV!

Somebody also mentioned that the life of a motor is around 20-30 hours of flying. That seems short. I thought that these brushless things go on forever.

Keep you posted.

Cheers.
 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
Did you order ESCs already? Many now come with SimonK flashed. Or you can get a cheap tool from HK depending on what type of ESC it is. Regardless, you'll want to change the programming for the ESCs which can be done via program card or stick movements. Look up the details to see about your specific ESC.

Motors should definitely last more than 30 hours if you care for them. Bearings are another story. Those could need replacing after awhile.
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
I have ordered them already from the UK on eBay. Would I be able to fly without changing the program? I ordered the Turnigy Multistar 30 Amp Multi-rotor Brushless ESC.
I will try to look up the details. Thanks for the advice! :)

 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
Hood49 said:
I have ordered them already from the UK on eBay. Would I be able to fly without changing the program? I ordered the Turnigy Multistar 30 Amp Multi-rotor Brushless ESC.
I will try to look up the details. Thanks for the advice! :)
Click to expand...

They will fly without change - and hopefully the settings will be more multirotor specific on that brand. There are settings that should be changed on standard ESCs because stock settings are based on airplane setup.
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Thanks for your response.
The description of the ESC is "Turnigy Multistar 30 Amp Multi-rotor Brushless ESC 2-4S Quadcopter Multicopter". So I guess this will work with a Quadcopter (hopefully).
I have sent a mail to the seller asking to flash it with simonK before shipping. Lets see.

Motopreserve said:
They will fly without change - and hopefully the settings will be more multirotor specific on that brand. There are settings that should be changed on standard ESCs because stock settings are based on airplane setup.
Click to expand...
 

Hood49

Hood49

Member
Just an update here.

I have started to take the quad apart to start upgrading. I want to know for sure if the wiring is going to take the new 4S current. I will post a couple of pictures.
My first impression is that I will need to make a new harness to power the new ESC's. Now they are connected with simple JST connectors. Not the way to go I recon. I am going to put 3.5mm bullets.
I will also need to power some aux stuff like FPV, Naza,.. so I think is is a good idea to put some JST connectors on the harness as well.

Instead of the Dean connector I will put XT60 connector. I have heard that they are better.

IMG_1832_zps47e0c493.jpg


ESCRTF_zps83f571e2.jpg
 

Motopreserve

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
You definitely don't want JST for the upgrade. I would question whether it was a good idea for the old rig.

You should calculate your amp draw to determine whether the XT60 is appropriate (the 60 stands for 60 amps). 3.5mm billets usually work well. You can also get a power distribution board, but only a decent quality one (again rated for your max amp draw + a little headroom). Then you hard solder right to the power distro board.

As far as the wire gauge - if you solder a squid for power, I always use 12 and/or 14 gauge. It would be a bit overkill/heavy for some rigs - but it can then be used on another rig if it requires a more sturdy gauge. Just watch the weight.
 

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