$65K drone crashed: why you should never touch your copter while it is airborne :)

Benjamin Kenobi

Easy? You call that easy?
No at all mate! :nevreness: We all do it. I've been quite critical of loads of posts this week and I apologise also.

Oh, and.....well done! What you just said takes heart my good man!
 
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mitmit

Member
Come on guys. even if it was a DJI brain malfunction like rс signal loss, this is not a reason to leave a killer-machine thing in the air and run. hold it by hands until batteries goes out, call your cam op for help, etc etc. these guys just RUN away.. imagine if there were kids sitting in cafe?.. if you pretend to be a commercial pilot, what kind of stress are you talking about? cant cope with your stress - go cook pasta (fly phantom:)). pilot of that sort of things have no right to be stressed.
as for hired pilots, well in my opinion a time when it could be possible isnt here yet. I'm fulltime in this business since early 2008 and I strongly believe that as a pilot you must thoroughly know your equipment and be able to disassemble and reassemble it with your eyes closed. then you should test it in the field for 50 times before you go to do any commercial job. only that way you will feel yoursel safe on location..
my inglish isnt perfect, sorry)
cheers)

ps Iris, great idea for the towel, thanks!
 
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MombasaFlash

Heli's & Tele's bloke
I agree. You don't just give up like that.

As for hired pilots, although I feel the same way about a machine being personal, Flying Cam regularly uses freelance pilots who just turn up and fly, with little responsibility for airframe setup, and they have been operating that way for a good twenty years. It will become a wider practice with multi-rotors but of course there will be the good outfits and the poor, just like with everything. The responsibility lies with the pilots to stand firm and educate the ignorant suits with the investment money so that they do not get forced into difficult or dangerous practices.

This Italian Pink Panther outfit may have investment money but are clearly not serious. Fabio mentions in his excuses that he was in no position to refuse his employer. At least, that is how I understand the Google translation of his response. That is an untenable situation for a pilot who has to have the ultimate word on whether or not to fly. But he was still a pu$$y to run away like that!
 

FerdinandK

Member
The brave man acts, and for sure he does not judge others, since he knows it could have been him in this situation, and he does not know how he would have reacted.

Only Superman (and possibly Batman) do know in advance what to do and how to act in a given situation, they never fail.

A lot of Supermans around here.


best regards
Ferdinand
 

jes1111

Active Member
Interesting thread ;)

I'm not so sure he was a pu$$y for running away. He will have realised two things pretty quickly after the "impact" - 1) that the machine was basically "out of control", i.e. not responding as it should and therefore unpredictable and 2) that, resting against the umbrella pole facing away from "the crowd", it posed no immediate danger to anybody. Under those circumstances, and knowing it wasn't my own precious machine anyway, I'm pretty sure I would have "stayed clear" to give myself more time to figure what-the-F was happening and what the safe/sensible next move should be. Fools rush in..., etc.? ;)
 
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MombasaFlash

Heli's & Tele's bloke
... He will have realised two things pretty quickly after the "impact" ...

Well I'm sorry, he didn't even see the impact. He had already given up with a dismissive hand gesture and turned around to leave. Once it had wedged itself into the corner I agree, there was time to think before acting. But it must have been some kind of total FC lock out though because he walks in and out of frame and the motors just keep on spinning.

I wonder which FC it was. The DJI GPS puck is clearly visible but whether it was a WKM or A2 is not clear. If it was an A2 the current A2 2.2 Upgrade Guinea Pig thread could be relevant.

But as someone mentioned before, his woes have been compounded by someone videoing the whole episode. No one came in to try and help him either. I guess everybody else was scared of it. Poor sod.
 

fdproductions

FD Productions
Well I'm sorry, he didn't even see the impact. He had already given up with a dismissive hand gesture and turned around to leave. Once it had wedged itself into the corner I agree, there was time to think before acting. But it must have been some kind of total FC lock out though because he walks in and out of frame and the motors just keep on spinning.

I wonder which FC it was. The DJI GPS puck is clearly visible but whether it was a WKM or A2 is not clear. If it was an A2 the current A2 2.2 Upgrade Guinea Pig thread could be relevant.

But as someone mentioned before, his woes have been compounded by someone videoing the whole episode. No one came in to try and help him either. I guess everybody else was scared of it. Poor sod.

Flash, im pretty certain it was A2 2.1 as my s800 evo exhibited the same behavior while on a shoot a few days ago, once again while on A22.1 so therefore the guinea pigs aren't exact guinea pigs since 2.1 wasn't much better. 2.3 seems to be flying exceptionally better minus GPS hold accuracy.
 

Bluerex

Member
This incident kinda ties into a dilemma that has been nagging at me since I started.
Is RTH the most appropriate "Fail Safe" response from a TX - FC system??
Given the number of GPS related fly-away/screw-ups and general advise to NOT fly in GPS mode, it seems a bit nonsensical to rely on this very mechanism when things turn to poo.
I can understand that a perfectly functional GPS and RTH combo is a great comfort BUT there are plenty of cases where this has either not worked or worse, actually caused an accident when mistakenly engaged (copter landed, suddenly decides that it needs to RTH and tries to get to 30m in a hurry)

So the only other option I have is to set my receiver to kill the throttle if the transmitter signal stops. I can't see any other way of stopping a thrashing copter, or dropping a craft heading into a dangerous area in the case of GPS failure.

There may not be a right answer to this but I'm really interested to hear what other think.

Charles.
 

daniel

Member
looks like he is holding the MR so the traffic/car can go thru.....then at letting it go again, it was too close to the umbrella, there is a moment when he could grab the radio and do something.....but he turned around and gave up by giving his back at the MR.....
yeah, maybe he was stressed, or some personal issues and problems and etc..... but you never give your back to your multirotor when is in the air...... i do that when i landed or i crashed it, and there was no other solution to save it..... i crashed many times.... and i saved my MR from very difficult situations also.
after 4 years of working with drones full time, i still can't sleep the day before a job, i still get nervous during the job, and i pray before and after every job for the people around me so they don't get injured........ and i fly a $5K Drone....... i Cant imagine the level of stress flying that awesome / never seen MR....
Sorry for his loss.....
 

dazzab

Member
This incident kinda ties into a dilemma that has been nagging at me since I started.
So the only other option I have is to set my receiver to kill the throttle if the transmitter signal stops. I can't see any other way of stopping a thrashing copter, or dropping a craft heading into a dangerous area in the case of GPS failure.
Charles.
But the entire point here is that commands from the Tx aren't being recognised. So what good would setting your Tx to anything do? If you experience loss of control then you don't have ANY control.

Bluerex and I were discussing this last night and all I could think of was to do what they do when filming dangerous animals. Have a spotter with a gun standing next to you so that you can shot it if it attacks. You need some sort of response that is totally independent of the control systems.
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
But the entire point here is that commands from the Tx aren't being recognised. So what good would setting your Tx to anything do? If you experience loss of control then you don't have ANY control.

Bluerex and I were discussing this last night and all I could think of was to do what they do when filming dangerous animals. Have a spotter with a gun standing next to you so that you can shot it if it attacks. You need some sort of response that is totally independent of the control systems.

The RTH programmed into an RX would kick in if there is a complete loss of radio signal (RSSI) - so barring a power loss to the RX and FC, the craft would do what had been programmed when the fail safe/binding the RX. So theoretically you could have programmed it to land, or RTH or hover etc.
 

dazzab

Member
The RTH programmed into an RX would kick in if there is a complete loss of radio signal (RSSI) - so barring a power loss to the RX and FC, the craft would do what had been programmed when the fail safe/binding the RX. So theoretically you could have programmed it to land, or RTH or hover etc.
Imagine what a disaster that could have been in this case. So, RTH kicks in, first step in RTH is to climb to a predetermine height, craft shoots up to a height where now it's really dangerous. Next step is to fly to RTH, well odds are RTH was never set so it's going to fly exactly where? So now a bad situation is even worse because you have a fly away with a very heavy copter that's going to come down 'somewhere'. I think my solution is much better. Shoot it like the mad dog that it is. It's the only way to be safe.
Depending on any type of automation to get you out of a situation where the automation has gone haywire is just crazy.

Now, to be a bit more serious. If the flight plan was simply to fly up high enough to shoot over a wall, perhaps this is one of those cases where being tethered would have been a good plan? Who knows, it's always easy to criticise after the fact. The entire concept of a hired pilot coming in to use equipment they haven't tested or flown before, and know extremely well, does seem like a recipe for disaster though.

Anyway, poo happens to us all. These are complex beasts. Just yesterday I had a motor stop on a hexa due to a bad connection on a power distribution board that was assembled at the factory of a very high quality brand copter. As I said, poo happens. We can only do so much to mitigate it.
 

Motopreserve

Drone Enthusiast
I misspoke. I should have said that the fail safe kicks in during loss. But it would be the choice of what was programmed with the RX.

So the pilot is responsible for setting the fail safe to whatever they figure is safest for the given situation. That may mean landing/motors off immediately - which seems more sensible in a square full of people, or RTH in a wide open field devoid of danger.

The tethered flight is probably the safest route. Of course people could still get hurt by a dropping MR if some other issue happened, but at least you'd have some type of control.
 

Bluerex

Member
If I could guarantee "Land and Motors off" I would be happy - unfortunately I only have one "setting" for coms failure... PLUMMET!

c
 

SoCal Blur

Member
I've seen a couple of ads for parachute deployment devices for MRs. It seems to work relatively well and is probably the least likely to hurt someone on the way down.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
This incident kinda ties into a dilemma that has been nagging at me since I started.
Is RTH the most appropriate "Fail Safe" response from a TX - FC system??
Given the number of GPS related fly-away/screw-ups and general advise to NOT fly in GPS mode, it seems a bit nonsensical to rely on this very mechanism when things turn to poo.
I can understand that a perfectly functional GPS and RTH combo is a great comfort BUT there are plenty of cases where this has either not worked or worse, actually caused an accident when mistakenly engaged (copter landed, suddenly decides that it needs to RTH and tries to get to 30m in a hurry)

So the only other option I have is to set my receiver to kill the throttle if the transmitter signal stops. I can't see any other way of stopping a thrashing copter, or dropping a craft heading into a dangerous area in the case of GPS failure.

There may not be a right answer to this but I'm really interested to hear what other think.

Charles.

IMO, a big part of the problem with this whole situation is that so many of these controllers that are more or less Plug and Play do nothing to educate their users, even advanced users, how these systems actually work. Worse than that, they actually obfuscate the situation, actively hiding what is going on behind the scenes from the user.

For example, the location this was shot at was a TERRIBLE location to use GPS. Same situation with the video last year with the skyscraper. If I was being paid to operate in that location, I would likely turn the GPS off completely, and fly in full manual mode. But that brings up the second and third problem with these systems. These systems do not tell their users they should learn to fly in manual mode. To do so, would be an admission that their system is fallible. It also hurts the idea that the system is easy to fly. Furthermore, many of them don't even *offer* a non-GPS flight mode! Something I read about the DJI A2 seems to indicate that their "Atti" mode still uses GPS! But just try and find out for sure from DJI!

Was this event caused by GPS problems? Who knows. Which is another problem, because users of these systems are not trained to figure out why it happened so they can *learn from their mistakes*, and/or the system designer does not give their users the tools to find out what happened.

I see this more and more, and it really frustrates me. People just buying their way into this industry, without any foundational knowledge whatsoever about how these systems work. It seems to me that most people think these things are endowed with black magic. I got interested in the industry 3 years ago, but I still haven't been paid to do a single shoot, because I'm still not at the point yet where I think the system is good enough. The problem there is that I know too much, and am a perfectionist.

The idea of carrying a towel around to throw over an errant copter, or a shotgun, seems insane to me. How often does this stuff happen? If you guys think that type of thing would make your operations safer, I really think you should have a second look at your systems and procedures. Can you imagine getting on an airliner and they hand you a parachute "Just in case something goes wrong". As I said, I've been doing this for 3 years, not just using the systems, but writing new code, etc. and I've NEVER wished I had a towel handy.

The fact that we don't already know exactly what went wrong in this case, 2+ weeks after the fact, is a demonstration the user and systems creator have both failed in some pretty fundamental ways.

And yes, it should absolutely possible to have these systems with an auto-land failsafe. That's what ours does. If you're flying in a GPS mode, and it suddenly looses GPS or has a massive GPS glitch, it will stop using GPS data, will just try to land straight down. The user can also easily take back FULL MANUAL control. That should always be people's first instinct. Not grabbing a towel.
 
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dazzab

Member
And yes, it should absolutely possible to have these systems with an auto-land failsafe. That's what ours does. If you're flying in a GPS mode, and it suddenly looses GPS or has a massive GPS glitch, it will stop using GPS data, will just try to land straight down. The user can also easily take back FULL MANUAL control. That should always be people's first instinct. Not grabbing a towel.
That's certainly good advice and it's been repeated many times. Arducopter is not without issues either. There was a time when it suffered from GPS issues as well, and a time when the barometer didn't work when it got hot. Wasn't it you (or maybe Leonard) that discovered it wasn't working properly with octocopters on the APM due to memory issues at one point? Not long ago a user reported a bug that was dismissed until he surprised everyone by writing the code to correct it himself. If you read through the release notes of each version you'll find things being fixed that if you knew about beforehand you probably wouldn't have flown with. When Arducopter gets to a production release I'll test it further on my large copters. In the meantime it works great on my quads and all the extra features are just fantastic when you need them. As you say it keeps me much more aware of how things work and what's actually going on. I like that.

Of course, for the time being it's a moot point for those of us who live outside the US given that the APM/Pixhawk can't be exported to other countries.
 
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R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I never said Arducopter was perfect. They are all going to have problems. The difference is in how you deal with things. You can hide things <cough>DJI A2 Firmware<cough> and leave people in the dark. Or fess up, fix the problem, tell everybody what happened, and move on. And it was me that discovered the Octocopter problem. None of the problems you state, however, result in users being unable to control the vehicle. Most of them are simply handled by switching to manual. A few of them resulted in it falling straight down. You will never see a "production release". I'm not even sure what that would mean in our case where the software is not tied to hardware at all. We have stable releases. I guess this is what other people call "production releases". I really think that the main reason that people, like you, have this impression that Arducopter is "unfinished" is exactly because we are so open about bugs, the release process, etc. Question: Is Arducopter's stable release more or less reliable than A2's 2.2 release? (either the first, or the phantom second release?)

The point of my post wasn't supposed to be a discussion or comparison about software bugs though. We have no idea what happened in this video. Was it user error, a bug, or the fact that A2 seemingly can't be flown in a no-GPS mode. That's what I'm talking about. It's more about user education and knowledge. And also user skill to be able to control a copter manually when required. And that's not a statement that all auto functions are pointless, and we should all be flying with KK because there's less to go wrong. Both are useful, in different situations. I'm a very strong proponent that no system should be offered without a full manual control mode, and that users should be competent to fly in that mode.

I've seen people who had a "DJI Flyaway", when the real situation was simply that they switched to manual mode, and the wind blew it away and they had no idea what was happening! In DJI's defence, that is 100% user error. It should not happen. But it does. And it even happens to the big guys.
 

dazzab

Member
And also user skill to be able to control a copter manually when required. I'm a very strong proponent that no system should be offered without a full manual control mode, and that users should be competent to fly in that mode.
How would the ability to fly in manual mode have helped this pilot? The issue here was that he had no control from the Tx. In such a case the pilot's flying skills are irrelevant.
I've seen people who had a "DJI Flyaway", when the real situation was simply that they switched to manual mode, and the wind blew it away and they had no idea what was happening! In DJI's defence, that is 100% user error. It should not happen. But it does. And it even happens to the big guys.
Good point. In earlier days Arducopter couldn't even take off in GPS or Alt Hold mode. So I learned to fly manually (what Arducopter calls stabilise) not even knowing there was another way. GPS lock, or loiter as Arducopter calls it, was more of a bonus mode to use if you wanted to. So it took me a while to even realise that DJI users were taking off and landing in GPS mode all the time.

Now that I'm using other flight controllers I use GPS quite often because it works, and it works well. My goal is to have a flying tripod and GPS lock provides just that. Arducopter seems to have caught up in that area if not surpassed others. But it takes a fair amount of fiddling to get there. Given that I want to spend my time flying and taking video, the plug and play approach is actually working much better for me. While Arducopter users are tweaking, upgrading firmware and writing code, I'm out flying.
 

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