FAA action against RC activities

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
I've heard of one instance of FAA enforcement against an RC aerial photographer today but I've also been told that approximately 125 cease-and-desist letters went out today. Can anyone add to this?
I was told that the FAA ruled today that ALL RC activities are to be conducted at designated flying fields. Theoretically, flying RC in your front yard as I do on a regular basis would seem to be against the law as of today.
Has anyone heard of this happening? The other (and lesser, IMHO :) ) RC sites don't have any mention of it.
Bart
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
I've heard of one instance of FAA enforcement against an RC aerial photographer today but I've also been told that approximately 125 cease-and-desist letters went out today. Can anyone add to this?
I was told that the FAA ruled today that ALL RC activities are to be conducted at designated flying fields. Theoretically, flying RC in your front yard as I do on a regular basis would seem to be against the law as of today.
Has anyone heard of this happening? The other (and lesser, IMHO :) ) RC sites don't have any mention of it.
Bart

The first part I can easily believe, wouldn't be the first time they did it, I guess we'll find out for sure within a few days. The second part is not within the power of the FAA to do without everyone knowing about it. It would have to be proposed and published for public comment ( see... http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr11_main_02.tpl) before any rule they make could become law, none of which has happened... yet... plus it would posted here if it had... http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/

Ken

P.S. what is the source of these rumors?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
an RC heli guy in California. i'm waiting to hear back from him to get some clarification but I don't see it mentioned on any of the other forums sites so I'm having trouble believing it.
as for the letters, i've seen the actual letter received by one person so there's no denying that aspect of what's happening. it's not a cease-and-desist, it's an actual notification of an investigation which is very serious in FAA terms.
 



Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
I am of the opinion that people flying via FPV beyond visual range should be regulated as they do pose a risk to manned aircraft that they cannot see or avoid. I am also of the opinion that commercial aerial photo/video operators flying very close to their person (certainly within visual range) should be registered but not nearly as regulated and that it's hypocritical as hell for our government to push all sorts of technology based initiatives while simultaneously putting the kabosh on comm AP/AV operators that are both responsible and making a contribution to many industries.
I think the FAA is screwing up big time with this and intend to address it with my local office on Monday.
 

Stacky

Member
One of the Hoverfly guys has done some really nice footage for the discovery channel for a program called "Harvest" and on another forum he was asked how he got around FCC regs. This was his reply

"I didn't go around anything, but instead went straight through. In the beginning took the time to travel to each home agencies office and file and arrange the proper relationships to allow us to to this. It has a lot to do with my military experience, pilot license, contributions to various government agencies as to the capabilities of this type of equipment, etc..."
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
Stacky,
I saw that post and I'm going to try discussing this with the FAA on Monday. At the very least they might offer to renew my flight instructor certificate while I'm there. I'll post the outcome of my adventure when I get home MOnday.
 

Stacky

Member
Good luck Bart, hope you can get some sense out of them. Its a weird thing but I would have thought the very people the FAA would have wanted on their side would be professionals who could help set the standards for this new industry.
 

Bowley

Member
Am I right in saying that the US you don't operate under any regulatory structure?
We have a regulatory structure in the UK already (for commercial use of UAS). At present we have a single private enterprise approved by the CAA to issue the only recognized certificate......the BNUC-S. which covers <20kg. this is not a licence in itself but a certificate of training and competency that the CAA recognizes and based on that and other submissions, will decide whether to issue permissions and exemptions to the operator.
The BNUC-S basically amounts to a certificate of competence to the level a little above a BMFA-A, and evidence of regulatory awareness.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
This is a great time for the community to get together instead of pointing fingers. I kite surf and for some reason windsurfers, surfers and kite surfers all hate each other for the most part. But as soon as our beaches are threatened to be shut down we all realize we are all enjoying the same element at the same location. It's silly! So we now are faced with the reality that our investments may become paper weights. It is very likely that the sUAS sector of the FAA consists of a bunch of lobbyists that don't really care if we are flying an ipod driven drone or a military capable spy-plane with missiles. It is always easier for them to just make it all illegal. So the best thing we can do is take the very slow process of being heard. I am hoping Bart can be a foot in the door and perhaps provide us a conduit to voice our opinions. If given this opportunity we should not be defensive but sympathetic to the realities they face as some of them are very real concerns. I think most of us would be more than happy if we could take a test, prove our skills, register our crafts and conduct a small business legally. As there is no way they can control everyone with a drone, I would think it would be advantageous and perhaps profitable to just find a compromise. Not that we have any real power or say in the matter.... It's all about meeting the right person at the right time.

So let's come out from under our rocks and get together as a strong, organized, intelligent community. If there are any ideas for what would prove one's abilities to the FAA, ;et's hear them. No flying barbie dolls in trash cans. We need a certified school that can provide FAA approved licensing for our craft in an inexpensive and timely manner.

1st step, someone needs to meet the right person at the FAA. Grab some drinks with them. Make friends not enemies.
 

DennyR

Active Member
In the UK the Civil Aviation Authority aka the Campaign Against Aviation deemed that if you were commissioned to shot a job it was commercial but if you shot the same site speculatively and later sold the picture it was not. That was the basis in which many amateurs operated without the need to acquire the AOC Air Operators Certificate (Which was an annual cost in the region of 20K). As modelers were not really financially interesting to them a blind eye was the way in which they accepted it all. Terrorism is going to change that.

In the US one of the most common sources of complaints to the FAA is from So Called pro-shooters who use full size aircraft and shoot generally crappy pictures of real estate by flying Cessna 150's at below legal limits. They just cant accept that their days are over.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Am I right in saying that the US you don't operate under any regulatory structure?
We have a regulatory structure in the UK already (for commercial use of UAS). At present we have a single private enterprise approved by the CAA to issue the only recognized certificate......the BNUC-S. which covers <20kg. this is not a licence in itself but a certificate of training and competency that the CAA recognizes and based on that and other submissions, will decide whether to issue permissions and exemptions to the operator.
The BNUC-S basically amounts to a certificate of competence to the level a little above a BMFA-A, and evidence of regulatory awareness.

The trouble is the cost that this "one organisation" are charging is ridiculous, I spoke with the CAA about it and they were suprised at how much they are charging, and assured more training bodies would soon be recognised and hopefully introduce some competition, I have no problem taking the tests but when someone is taking the p**s regards pricing it a bit hard to swollow, the ground exam is more than my PPL ground exams, and the flight test is more!!!!
 

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
i'm very well equipped and trained for grabbing a drink with someone, as a matter of fact it's what I do best! I'll see what little I can accomplish and get back to all y'all. I've felt a great amount of relief in the last 18 hours knowing that I won't be sneaking around anymore.
Whatever is happening in the FAA's regulatory meetings, it would be awesome to find out who specifically is trying to represent us. I've heard it's the guys from the RCAPA.net website but I don't know if they can actually represent me when their latest policy statement is almost four years old.
Bart
 

Bowley

Member
The trouble is the cost that this "one organisation" are charging is ridiculous, I spoke with the CAA about it and they were suprised at how much they are charging, and assured more training bodies would soon be recognised and hopefully introduce some competition, I have no problem taking the tests but when someone is taking the p**s regards pricing it a bit hard to swollow, the ground exam is more than my PPL ground exams, and the flight test is more!!!!

Well yeah, there is the cost, (It has reduced considerably from what it was). I suppose it natural where a monopoly exists. Having said that I dont consider the cost of the course and tests to be totally out of hand, not in comparison to the industry I'm employed in anyway.

what concerns me is the type rating structure or lack of. ie having to do and pay for repeat flight tests for each system if you get a different FC or GCS etc. Each system is registered in its current state by them and any mods and changes are supposed to be submitted for the record (Insurance concerns come to mind here) and could require a further flight test.
I would like to see fixed wing, rotary, & multirotor type ratings.
I dont know what the CAA view is on this, it may be that the CAA may give permissions as long as they see a BNUC-S on a similar type and mass of system, and have been correctly informed of the system particulars.
If anyone has any experience or info on this............?
 

RTRyder

Merlin of Multirotors
i'm very well equipped and trained for grabbing a drink with someone, as a matter of fact it's what I do best! I'll see what little I can accomplish and get back to all y'all. I've felt a great amount of relief in the last 18 hours knowing that I won't be sneaking around anymore.
Whatever is happening in the FAA's regulatory meetings, it would be awesome to find out who specifically is trying to represent us. I've heard it's the guys from the RCAPA.net website but I don't know if they can actually represent me when their latest policy statement is almost four years old.
Bart

The only organized group that is actively working with the FAA and representing the RC/hobby side of the issue is to the best of my knowledge the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). Their perspective is they don't want any burdensome regulations that will affect the current state of affairs for the membership which pretty much is fixed wing and heli pilots that fly at sanctioned fields. As far as commercial sUAS they really don't care all that much because its not what they are about. For the most part the commercial segment is being represented by organizations that do have an interest such as law enforcement and research organizations, again not exactly the groups that are interested in doing things like real estate APV or small home based APV businesses (many of us in other words). We are potentially the segment that is going to fall through the cracks and get lumped in with the other commercial uses that would be flying the larger semi-autonomous craft that can fly farther, higher, and for a lot longer than what we're putting in the air.

What that potentially means is operator/pilot licensing and certification of the aircraft, neither of which will be trivial or inexpensive if the government is involved. The time to make a statement is as soon as the NPRM is released to the public for comment, it will also be the time that we will get to find out exactly what they have in mind for the commercial segment in terms of regulation and licensing. Last I heard the NPRM is tentatively set for release in December although they have set dates previously and it keeps slipping out into the future so keep an eye on the FAA website for updates to their rulemaking process. Until the NPRM is officially released there isn't much any of us can do or say that is going to change what is currently in progress, things will happen at the speed of government and so far that has proven to be painfully slow.

Ken
 

Hey Guys,

Here is what I heard, and what I shared with Bart. I will refer to the company that recieved the cease-and-desist, along with the phone calls as "My Friend". I only do this because I am sure he doenst want his information blasted all over the internet. I imagine that in the following Days/weeks/months that there will be a huge development of news regarding this subject. Until then, lets not get to worked up. Here is what I was told......



Two days ago, I was contacted by a friend. He runs an Aerial Filming Company. Approx 1 week ago, he was contacted directly by the FAA. and this is what he wrote to me,,,,,,,,,,,,,






"""Just as a note, I received a phone call yesterday from the FAA. Seems one of our competitors called the FAA, in a round about way, a nice form of flattery.




That said, I do know about the pending FAA reg's, been pending now for all most 5 years !!! and we are in contact with them at this moment about the new "Final" directive coming in December 2011, a few month away.


I will tell all to everyone when I get the full details in writing from FAA in a few days, but as outlined to me on the phone yesterday by Dennis @ the FAA, it appears to be aimed more at drone aircraft flying with a FPV camera long range, not our RC Heli's flying 50 to 60 feet off the ground never close to an airport, and more important fact was we are NOT UAV's , as we are in direct line of sight of the RC at all times, normally less then 100 feet away. SO,. to sum up, quick, the person on the other end of the phone call yesterday from the FAA, did not really know all the fact's himself, in fact kept changing his story, as the conversation continued, one more note he told me at first that ALL RC Helicopters not matter hobby use or commercial are under the new pending laws, which again is not true, as the draft in January 2011, in fact excludes hobby use.


AS Said, I do have direct communications with the FAA right now with this persons superiors in Washington DC FAA, whom is in control of the new regs' we shall see what they have to say or send me an advance copy of the new reg.


Till then, Google FAA RC Helicopters, see the results you get, a few are worth reading as current information. """



That was about a week ago. Now Just 2 Days ago, He recieved another phone call.

This time He was told by the FAA that " ALL RADIO CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT HAVE BEEN GROUNDED. IF YOU WISH TO FLY FOR HOBBY USE, YOU MAY ONLY DO SO AT A MANDATED FIELD". He was told that this serves as his VERBAL cease-and-desist, and that the OFFICIAL cease-and-desist is being sent out to him (along to 100+ other) from the Courts as we speak.

My friend has ran his business for a cpl of years now, and was very bummed to say the least. This phone call Litterally put him out of Business. I asked. " Are you sure, Is there any way around it", He replied " UHHHH NO, WE ARE F#*&% OUT OF BUSINESS".

He went on to explain the phone call that he recieved from the FAA. They were telling him that this has been coming down the pipe for a while. But the last few months it was really pushed forward due to the (RC AIRPLANE BOMBER INCIDENT). He was told that they are grounding all such aircraft until the final ruling/curriclum comes out in 2013.







So, thats what has been shared with me. My friend was pretty upset and seemed to be pretty convinced that he was "OFFICIALLY" grounded. He didnt seem to think this was just some sort of scare tactic by the FAA guy on the other end of the call. I am waiting to see something in writing, or to see some sort of published info on FAA website.

Bart,
Let me know how your visit to the Field Office goes. I am hoping that being Full scale pilots, will be able to help us in this matter. At the same time, I do not want to risk out Pilots Licence, because we unlawfully flew a toy helicopter.

Anyway guys. i am not trying to start rumors or be the bearer of bad news. This is simply what I was told, and I am sharing it with you guys. I will be patiently waiting to see something in writing. Until then, it is just hear say, Although it was pretty convincing.
 

Macsgrafs

Active Member
I phoned a guy at the CAA a few weeks ago & complained about the £1300 cost to take the test in this country. He agreed the price was to steep, but also said he couldnt do anythign about it. I asked about the BMFA A certificate being an equal exam to the rip off priced one, he said they used to accept that but not any more!(that makes the BMFA tests worthless if the CAA dont accept them).
My views are (Please correct me if I'm wrong), but commercial means making money from aerial video/photography. So there is a get out clause...do NOT charge for aerial work...simples:shame:
Now your all thinking whats the point then? Well just charge for the ground photos & video & offer the aerial FREE (I'm sure the bright sparks out there can see a big advantage here). A bit like buy 1 get 1 free....remember in business NOTHING is FREE! Just up the price of the ground shots etc. I didnt want to post this in an open forum, but I'm sick & tired of seeing people trying to make a living being ripped off under some statute/act (notice the word ACT...meaning part of a PLAY). People need to wake up & realise that statutes are NOT law & only become law if you consent.....how do you consent? Well when the cops pull you over for a motoring offence, they read you your rights & always end with "Do you understand"....understand in synonomous?? with "Stand under"...so you reply "I do NOT stand under your statement". Let it go to court...it will be a magistartes court (they do nOT have any power once you realise they are kangaroo courts & you come out scot free.....but you have to know the language they use in court...its called "Legalese"...sounds like English but its NOT...the words have different meanings.
I'm trying to give us, the people back the power which they think they can take away...in fines!!!! Just remember money is backed by...NOTHING!!!!! Money is worth...NOTHING...you are the worth, not money.
I could sit here & try explain in depth, but its not for a RC forum, too many will slag me off saying I'm talking crap...but do your own research...maybe you will see why OWS etc is happening, people are waking up at last.
Live by common law (the motherboard of law), statutes are the plug in boards. If you guys really want to be FREE, then search out "John Harris - It's an Illusion" on youtube, watch the 5 parts (total of 50 mins) a few times, learn why you ARE a slave because of your Birth Certificate....join the FREEMAN Society...take back the power from these corrupt companies that are bringing this world down with greed.
Sorry everyone for a slight rant, but its YOU guys I'm here for...the ocotocopter is secondary to a happy life.
If you want a better explanation, I can start a thread on this forum, to awaken people (not all will awake due to the herding instinct, like sheep), but those who do see what's happening all over this planet will feel stupid for letting them pull the wool over thier eyes (yes I felt stupid to).

Regards
Ross
 

Hi Macsgrafs, I have read much of John Harris's stuff and watched his videos, I even know some people who are devout followers of what he speaks, but it always seems to me that if you choose to be excluded from the statutes in place and become removed from the community entitlments ( by refusing to pay council tax, income tax etc) then you either have to be fairly wealthy in order to be able to cover the costs of things like disposal of rubbish, provision of fire engine cover, even access to the NHS etc or be setting yourself up for a big fall, don't get me wrong I'm all for this sort of thing but just can't see how it can work for the masses of ordinary people.
 

Macsgrafs

Active Member
Hi Macsgrafs, I have read much of John Harris's stuff and watched his videos, I even know some people who are devout followers of what he speaks, but it always seems to me that if you choose to be excluded from the statutes in place and become removed from the community entitlments ( by refusing to pay council tax, income tax etc) then you either have to be fairly wealthy in order to be able to cover the costs of things like disposal of rubbish, provision of fire engine cover, even access to the NHS etc or be setting yourself up for a big fall, don't get me wrong I'm all for this sort of thing but just can't see how it can work for the masses of ordinary people.

~Hi mate, sorry didnt get your name, I'm Ross.
You are very correct, but you must remember 2 things. They lie to us ALL the time with statutes/acts & that you cant have money & freedom, its one of the other as all money is a form of enslavement.
Example: You go for a mortgage, the banks create the money out of thin air & put into your account for you to buy the house. Now in contract law, both parties have to put up something of value...you the buyer put the new house up...what has the bank put up??? Dont say the original money as it was never there's in the first place...they created it from thin air...the biggest con in the world. Same for loans etc. so you see...you become a slave to money.
There is a great video floating about where a guy built a hobbit house for £3000...it looks stunning may I add, so he's off the grid now.

Also note that Statutes/acts are "Given the FORCE of law by consent of the governed"...by us, society. Now society is a free thing to join or leave, human rights guarantee us this....like a religion...do you have to join a religion? If you join a religion, can you leave when you want?

If you leave society, then you leave it ALL...NHS, Fire, bent coppers, bent councils..etc etc. So you are on your own, just like we used to be not so many years ago.

If myself or sainsburys or tescos or waitrose...any of them sent you a bill for £100 every month, would you pay it? Yet you pay your council tax!
Its all about knowing who is trying to rip you off & how to turn the tables.

Watch this video, very interesting:-
http://blip.tv/the-uk-column/bcg-vi-guy-taylor-commercial-liens-5683052

Ross
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Top