Carbon Fiber Props Deteriorating ~ Failing

photobobga

Member
I read several months ago that a good test for any carbon fiber prop before installing is to flex it and listen for pops or a cracking sound. This would indicate the the carbon fiber was weak and should not be used. I ordered several sets from RCTimer and started using them on two MC after testing. There was a wonderful improvement over the plastic props in flight time, prop noise and aircraft stability. All was good... until last weekend when I decided to do the flex test again while the props were mounted on the motors. Several of them had noticeably pops. After removing the props I did the flex test again to see how much effort it would take for a complete failure. They all broke with little effort.

Not having any experience with other carbon fiber props is this somewhat normal or a big red flag for RCTimer props?

-Bob
 

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CdA D

Member
I read several months ago that a good test for any carbon fiber prop before installing is to flex it and listen for pops or a cracking sound. This would indicate the the carbon fiber was weak and should not be used. I ordered several sets from RCTimer and started using them on two MC after testing. There was a wonderful improvement over the plastic props in flight time, prop noise and aircraft stability. All was good... until last weekend when I decided to do the flex test again while the props were mounted on the motors. Several of them had noticeably pops. After removing the props I did the flex test again to see how much effort it would take for a complete failure. They all broke with little effort.


Not having any experience with other carbon fiber props is this somewhat normal or a big red flag for RCTimer props?

-Bob

Great news! I fly these props. I haven't noticed any problems. Besides seeing if I can break them is there something visual I should look for? Do you think that RCtimer will back them up? Ha! Ha!
 

kloner

Aerial DP
that seems a bit extreme of a test....

if you fly the cf props, get the other type that are flat across where they bolt like Tiger brand, not with that narrow hub like shown
 

photobobga

Member
Kloner,

Funny you should mention those props as I just received that type Saturday. What I cant figure out is how to mount them. The prop hubs I'm using now are designed for a single threaded screw. The flat props I just received have three mounting holes. I've look everywhere for the correct hub to use with the HP4108-480KV motors... can you suggest a supplier for these hubs?

-Bob
 

photobobga

Member
When I did the flex test on the motors I applied very little pressure and heard the popping sound. And after removing I used very little effort to flex the props and they all folded in at the hub.
 


CdA D

Member
I'm using Cobra motors and the shanks are to long. I'm looking at APC props by apcprops.com. They have come well recommended. Thanks for the heads-up!
 

kloner

Aerial DP
those are almost impossible to balance out perfectly... i tried, never worked very well.... the tigers come dynamicaly balanced, so worth the extra money... if your not filming, apc are fine, Graupner are better, middle road imo
 

rcmike

Member
I just got a set of APC 16" MR props for my X8. I wanted to test the motor and ESC temps and flight time before dark so I bolted them on without checking the balance. The video had absolutely no vibration at all so they can't be too far out. Of course I will take them off and check the balance before doing any major filming but I am very happy with them so far. I just can't see spending a ton of money on carbon when cheaper ones don't have any vibes for me.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
Fact is, balancing is almost pointless unless all you do is hover. Even the most perfectly balanced props ( I know a guy who adjusts them for tracking too!) will start to vibrate as soon as the aircraft starts moving through air. Due to very basic aerodynamics. I actually have data logs that show this effect. Zero vibration in a hover with balanced props, and then horrible vibration starts as soon as you're moving even at 10 m/s (36 km/h, 18 mph). And this effect is worsened with stiffer props.

I have been using APC, and don't bother to balance, and have zero jello. You have to get your vibration damping good enough to handle the minor imbalance of APC, or I don't think you'll get good footage while moving.

Thanks to the OP for this post! I was just thinking of ordering some of these so this is very timely. I will just get some more APC's instead. I've been flying the SF's up until now, but hear good things about the MR's. APC's have thus far been perfect for me. I've had in-flight failures of other brands of plastic props before. I guess there's no point trying these RCT CF props.
 

kloner

Aerial DP
At least i don't gotta worry about my job...... if your not balancing your flight controller is pissed, the motor bearings will break from abuse, bolts shimy loose, these things can spin 10k rpm.... no need to balance, good luck with it all
 

Looking for help with iSeisometer app for motor balancing....... Under the settings "gear" icon does everyone leave the High pass filter on or turn it off? I believe most motor balancing videos show it turned off..... This filter when turned on insert the "g" force which amplifies the vibration wave making it easier to see results..... but maybe too easy as the amplitudes are clipped off when they exceed 100% vertical scale.
 

IMHO -
Step 1: eliminate the vibration at the source if at all possible......
Step 2: Use vibration dampening and/or vibration isolation (but these both add weight).

I have seen how ugly and dangerous MRs can be when the FC is flying blind because it can't make sense of the sensor inputs.....:dejection:

At least i don't gotta worry about my job...... if your not balancing your flight controller is pissed, the motor bearings will break from abuse, bolts shimy loose, these things can spin 10k rpm.... no need to balance, good luck with it all
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
Saying that props don't need to be balanced is just silly. Maybe it's not so critical that you get them spot on perfect but I can tell you first hand that unbalanced props can shake your Heli to breakage!
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
The data doesn't lie.

View attachment 14144

Notice the extremely strong correlation between vibration amplitude and groundspeed. This machine had the APM rigidly attached to the motor frame.

Another machine:

View attachment 14145

Same effect shown. Vibration is not as bad as this frame uses a "clean frame/dirty frame" layout. But still you can see how vibration increases as speed increases. It's very very clear. And that quad used Hobby King props, unbalanced. And still the vibration in a hover is much lower than while moving.

The need to balance obviously depends on how bad your props are to start with. I find APC's are pretty good right out of the package. But the point is, if you think unbalanced props are hard on your bearings and flight controller, well, flying is even worse. You cannot ignore the fact that blade flapping is causing vibration, and that vibration is actually worse than that caused by imbalance. If you're worried about your motor bearings, then don't fly with any airspeed.
 

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Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
i've also heard that the Tiger carbon Fiber CLONE props are poorly made with one found to have virtually no resin holding the fibers together at the hub.
 

DucktileMedia

Drone Enthusiast
I wouldnt argue that there are additional sources of vibrations from airflow but I dont think telling people to NOT balance is the right thing. You should check each and every prop on a good balancer and make sure it is at least close. Plus, with the exception of props with massive hubs like APC thins or wood Xoars, you only have to put some tape on the light blade and not worry about hub balancing.
 

Even a glider..... a plane without a motor.... can be pushed to reach a descent speed that allows the airframe to begin to severely vibrate.....
This is called the airframe's resonant frequency which typically starts on the wings or tail section.
if allowed to continue too long at this critical speed, the airframe will begin to disintegrate as the amplitude of the resonant frequency increases.
This is sometimes referred to as a "destructive sinusoidal wave".

In the case of a Multirotor, this can even occur with perfectly balanced motors and props and can first occur in the MR airframe or in the props especially if the props are too flexible.
Propellers made from more than one material such as cork center material wrapped in carbon fiber have built-in vibration dampening characteristics which tends to help especially in the acoustical range.
Analyzing this is possible with the right data and formulas but is much simpler with Comsol Multiphysics software......assuming you have the $$$$ as well as the training to use it!!!

For Multirotors designed to carry cinema quality cameras, and typically fly at relatively slow speeds, it is less likely that there will be issues of this kind occurring except when attempting to penetrate very strong winds.:tennis:


The data doesn't lie.

View attachment 17812

Notice the extremely strong correlation between vibration amplitude and groundspeed. This machine had the APM rigidly attached to the motor frame.

Another machine:

View attachment 17813

Same effect shown. Vibration is not as bad as this frame uses a "clean frame/dirty frame" layout. But still you can see how vibration increases as speed increases. It's very very clear. And that quad used Hobby King props, unbalanced. And still the vibration in a hover is much lower than while moving.

The need to balance obviously depends on how bad your props are to start with. I find APC's are pretty good right out of the package. But the point is, if you think unbalanced props are hard on your bearings and flight controller, well, flying is even worse. You cannot ignore the fact that blade flapping is causing vibration, and that vibration is actually worse than that caused by imbalance. If you're worried about your motor bearings, then don't fly with any airspeed.
 

R_Lefebvre

Arducopter Developer
I wouldnt argue that there are additional sources of vibrations from airflow but I dont think telling people to NOT balance is the right thing. You should check each and every prop on a good balancer and make sure it is at least close. Plus, with the exception of props with massive hubs like APC thins or wood Xoars, you only have to put some tape on the light blade and not worry about hub balancing.

I didn't really tell people not to balance props. I just said it's "almost pointless". I don't bother, but I didn't tell other people not to. The key thing here is that if your vibration management strategy is to ignore vibration damping, and balance your props to the nth degree so you don't have jello in a hover, you're still going to have problems soon as the aircraft starts moving through the air. And that moving through the air could even include just holding position in a breeze. And the data seems to be showing that if your vibration damping system can handle the vibration from air movement, then it can also handle the vibration from moderately unbalanced props.

Even a glider..... a plane without a motor.... can be pushed to reach a descent speed that allows the airframe to begin to severely vibrate.....
This is called the airframe's resonant frequency which typically starts on the wings or tail section.
if allowed to continue too long at this critical speed, the airframe will begin to disintegrate as the amplitude of the resonant frequency increases.
This is sometimes referred to as a "destructive sinusoidal wave".

In the case of a Multirotor, this can even occur with perfectly balanced motors and props and can first occur in the MR airframe or in the props especially if the props are too flexible.
Propellers made from more than one material such as cork center material wrapped in carbon fiber have built-in vibration dampening characteristics which tends to help especially in the acoustical range.
Analyzing this is possible with the right data and formulas but is much simpler with Comsol Multiphysics software......assuming you have the $$$$ as well as the training to use it!!!

For Multirotors designed to carry cinema quality cameras, and typically fly at relatively slow speeds, it is less likely that there will be issues of this kind occurring except when attempting to penetrate very strong winds.:tennis:

I do not disagree that the effect you are talking about does occur on fixed wing aircraft. But it has *nothing* to do with the problem on multirotors. It's a completely separate issue.

The problem is airflow entering the prop-disk at an oblique angle has a component which is tangential to the rotor disk (ie: sideways into the prop). This creates a higher amount of lift on the advancing blade, and lower lift on the retreating blade. This creates a torque trying to twist the propeller. But, the torque is sinusoidal, because when the propeller has rotated around and is parallel to the tangential airflow, the torque disappears, and then reappears again 90° later. It's a sinusoidal torque vibration.

This is an issue on helicopters too, which is why helicopters invented flapping rotor heads. The flapping alleviates the differential lift, and thus the vibration. But multirotors do not have flapping blades. So, you get this vibration. I expect the vibration is worse with stiffer propellers. And it should be worse with larger, slower turning propellers.

This vibration occurs well, well below the VNE of the aircraft.

And it just kind of hit me now that this might be EXACTLY what is causing these CF props to fail. They're very stiff, and under quite a lot of vibratory stress in flight. It's fracturing them.
 

R_Lefebvre...... You have provided some excellent information here. Apparently the reasoning behind DJI's use of a pivoting blade design for their new S800 EVO. From what I have read thus far, the optimum ratio of carbon fiber fabric to epoxy resin for maximum strength to weight ratio is 40% epoxy to 60% carbon fiber but typically there is a small amount of finishing epoxy put over the final layer for the high gloss final coat for uv protection, maximum glossy and to minimize air friction...... sometimes referred to as a gelcoat. View attachment 14152

I do not disagree that the effect you are talking about does occur on fixed wing aircraft. But it has *nothing* to do with the problem on multirotors. It's a completely separate issue. The problem is airflow entering the prop-disk at an oblique angle has a component which is tangential to the rotor disk (ie: sideways into the prop). This creates a higher amount of lift on the advancing blade, and lower lift on the retreating blade. This creates a torque trying to twist the propeller. But, the torque is sinusoidal, because when the propeller has rotated around and is parallel to the tangential airflow, the torque disappears, and then reappears again 90° later. It's a sinusoidal torque vibration. This is an issue on helicopters too, which is why helicopters invented flapping rotor heads. The flapping alleviates the differential lift, and thus the vibration. But multirotors do not have flapping blades. So, you get this vibration. I expect the vibration is worse with stiffer propellers. And it should be worse with larger, slower turning propellers. This vibration occurs well, well below the VNE of the aircraft. And it just kind of hit me now that this might be EXACTLY what is causing these CF props to fail. They're very stiff, and under quite a lot of vibratory stress in flight. It's fracturing them.
 

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