Bad feeling about this crash in French alps

Gary Seven

Gary Seven

Rocketman
Hello everyone. Please forgive me as this is totally OT to the purpose of this forum, but I'm very nervous and a little upset right now so I hope you'll indulge me a little and maybe even cut me some slack.

There was a commercial plane crash over the French Alps today. No one knows what happened yet, but I was acquainted with two fellows on this flight, one German and one Spanish. I didn't know them well, but what's freaking me out right now is that they were massive RC enthusiasts, and I believe were headed to Düsseldorf for a little FPV gathering of friends.

I am absolutely freaked out because, as many of you are aware, there was a LiPo fire onboard a commercial flight last week. These fellows also had their batteries and vehicles on board...and the flight went down in good weather.

It's a strange feeling. I find myself hoping the cause of the crash will turn out to be either mechanical or some intentional act, but please...NOT a LiPo fire. Thanks for hearing me out.:(
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ge...senger-plane-crashes-france-officials-n329076
 

Bartman

Bartman

Welcome to MultiRotorForums.com!!
it's impossible to say until more information is available. if they had batteries with them then it can't be ruled out but i'd guess it's a long shot at the moment.

sorry about your friends, it's another horrible event.
 

Gary Seven

Gary Seven

Rocketman
Bartman said:
it's impossible to say until more information is available. if they had batteries with them then it can't be ruled out but i'd guess it's a long shot at the moment.

sorry about your friends, it's another horrible event.
Click to expand...
Hey Bart. Yeah, of course it's impossible to say what happened at this point in time. Guess I' just totally spooked given what happened last week with a real, onboard LiPo fire.
 

Old Man

Old Man

Active Member
With other high threat activity in Europe right now we should postpone our speculations. I too am sorry for the probable loss of your friends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Carapau

Carapau

Tek care, lambs ont road, MRF Moderator
Hi Gary, very easy to see why you are spooked like this. Try not to worry too much about it, there are a gazillion other reasons why it may have gone down and only time will tell. Chin up buddy, I've been in a similar position myself before and the best remedy is to work hard and thus keep your mind off it and to realise that it is most probably another cause entirely.
 

JoeBob

JoeBob

Elevation via Flatulation
8 minute descent with no radio communication?
If it was an on-board fire we'd have heard plenty of yelling and screaming on the radio.
One of the radio pundits was talking about a frozen 'angle of attack' sensor due to a recent wash on the Airbus 20.
 

dazzab

dazzab

Member
That's terrible news and quite disturbing. My heart goes out to all those affected by this tragedy. @Gary - stick close to your family and friends for now. Your concern about batteries is valid but from what I've seen an onboard lipo fire is manageable. The crew are well trained to deal with such events.
 

fltundra

fltundra

Member
No one in my immediate family or I will ever step foot on an Airbus. I've been reading the NTSB reporter since I received my license in 95, and know to well they aren't safe. Prayers to those families.
 

S

Steve Graham

New Member
Sorry to hear that FLTUNDRA. I've been flying the A320 series aircraft since 2003 as a captain for a US carrier. Prior to that I spent 8 years on the B737. At the time I first transitioned to the 320 I honestly felt the aircraft was a mistake for my carrier. None of our maintenance staff and virtually none of our pilot group had any real experience with the type. I'll also admit to a little lost pride over the fact that I'd no longer be flying a US designed AC. In the 12 years since the reality of operating the machine has taught me that even if it is not the perfect aircraft, that hasn't been designed yet BTW, it is as safe as ANY aircraft in the worldwide fleet given good maintenance and a trained aware crew. The 320 has suffered a bit of a public image problem since it's inception due to public misperceptions fostered in part by the uneducated and sensationalistic media such as one 60 minutes piece in particular. The video you posted played a partial role in that. The more complicated truth is that the test pilots operating that flight were found to be criminally negligent due to the way in which they flew that low pass. Any modern fly by wire aircraft is an incredibly complex system that must be understood intimately by those who would fly it. The test pilots in that video were better versed than even line pilots to know that the position they put that aircraft into would inevitably lead to the results you witnessed. The simple fact is they flew a perfectly good airplane into the ground. Exactly how it happened is beyond the scope of a forum of this nature. A little digging will find you the truth there. Another notorious accident Air France 447 involving an A330 was chronicled as well as any accident I've ever read in Bill Palmer's book "Understanding Air France 447". If you really want to understand a little bit about a modern jet transport I highly recommend the read. It is written in a way even a layman can understand. One of the points made is that even Boeing's fly by wire products share many of the same design traits that can potentially trip up pilots who are not fully aware of their aircraft and their surroundings. There are many factors that lead up to an aircraft accident and any one particular types safety record beyond simple design.

IMO your comments are without merit backed up by experience or real knowledge of which you speak. No airplane is perfect. No man machine interface will ever be without the potential for misuse. I feel the VAST majority of pilots with any amount of time in both types would take exception to your categorization of the 32o as "unsafe".
 



fltundra

fltundra

Member
Steve Graham said:
Sorry to hear that FLTUNDRA. I've been flying the A320 series aircraft since 2003 as a captain for a US carrier. Prior to that I spent 8 years on the B737. At the time I first transitioned to the 320 I honestly felt the aircraft was a mistake for my carrier. None of our maintenance staff and virtually none of our pilot group had any real experience with the type. I'll also admit to a little lost pride over the fact that I'd no longer be flying a US designed AC. In the 12 years since the reality of operating the machine has taught me that even if it is not the perfect aircraft, that hasn't been designed yet BTW, it is as safe as ANY aircraft in the worldwide fleet given good maintenance and a trained aware crew. The 320 has suffered a bit of a public image problem since it's inception due to public misperceptions fostered in part by the uneducated and sensationalistic media such as one 60 minutes piece in particular. The video you posted played a partial role in that. The more complicated truth is that the test pilots operating that flight were found to be criminally negligent due to the way in which they flew that low pass. Any modern fly by wire aircraft is an incredibly complex system that must be understood intimately by those who would fly it. The test pilots in that video were better versed than even line pilots to know that the position they put that aircraft into would inevitably lead to the results you witnessed. The simple fact is they flew a perfectly good airplane into the ground. Exactly how it happened is beyond the scope of a forum of this nature. A little digging will find you the truth there. Another notorious accident Air France 447 involving an A330 was chronicled as well as any accident I've ever read in Bill Palmer's book "Understanding Air France 447". If you really want to understand a little bit about a modern jet transport I highly recommend the read. It is written in a way even a layman can understand. One of the points made is that even Boeing's fly by wire products share many of the same design traits that can potentially trip up pilots who are not fully aware of their aircraft and their surroundings. There are many factors that lead up to an aircraft accident and any one particular types safety record beyond simple design.

IMO your comments are without merit backed up by experience or real knowledge of which you speak. No airplane is perfect. No man machine interface will ever be without the potential for misuse. I feel the VAST majority of pilots with any amount of time in both types would take exception to your categorization of the 32o as "unsafe".
Click to expand...
Thank you for your opinion.
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...aw-linked-to-deadly-2001-crash/1#.VRKOCuE5vb4

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...nating-tragic-loss-Air-France-Flight-447.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:


Old Man

Old Man

Active Member
Not really. I sort of work for one of those manufacturers and everyone has problems with something. Heck, Boeing had some pretty good scares with their back up batteries not that long ago and even Rolls Royce has had a few engine issues. Of larger import is flight crew training, especially with some foreign carriers. Most U.S. carriers are sticklers about currency/emergency training. Systems automation has become so predominant and flight crews often so dependent on that automation that unless the carrier's currency training forces practicing manual flight skills the front seaters have forgotten how to respond to aircraft performance stimuli and can't hand fly the plane. This is something that is especially difficult in large airliners because visual cues are more difficult to discern, flight systems are more complicated, and flight inside zero visibility conditions is more prevalent. The situation can be worsened if the flight crew is split in the decision making process and unable to take the right actions. Toss in high speeds that can develop where aircraft attitude and control cannot be recovered due to aerodynamic forces and things can get real bad real fast. The China 747 crash at SFO a few years ago was a great demonstration of how flight crews can lose their skills, and the recent crash in China where the flight crew shut down the good engine and stalled the plane into a river is another. Then we have the last Malaysia flight that evidently tried to ascend too steeply and found out, fatally, that pulling back hard on the stick means go up for only a little while before it becomes go down. In aviation, complacency and lack of critical decision making skills can be fatal conditions.

The lack of communications and fast descent of the flight in question suggests (to me anyway) that something mechanical was not the problem. What scares me is this would not be the first time an airliner was purposely driven into the ground. Discounting 9/11 there have been at least two. The flight recorders will ultimately tell the story.
 

S

Steve Graham

New Member
No worries Gary, An aircraft accident is always a sad day in many respects. If anything good comes from these things it's that the industry as a whole generally becomes better for the lessons learned. What's not helpful are alarmist proclamations full of half truths and lacking facts that serve only to scare people away from living their lives.
 

S

Steve Graham

New Member
Hey TOM, Thanks :)
Pilot training will likely always remain near the top of the most wanted list for safety improvements. I like to think that here in the US we rise to a higher level of proficiency but to believe that completely would be a bit self serving. No airman should ever hold himself above critique both personally and through the training process. As you state there is a growing concern among pilots everywhere that the level of automation involved in the current fleet and the ways it is employed are degrading pilots fundamental skills. For many airlines around the world the ab initio nature of pilot recruitment means that an individual may find herself at the controls of a large transport having spent very little time in a basic stick and rudder airplane that didn't envelope the pilot in a barrage of electronic data once removed from reality. The US airlines have already taken some steps to ensure stick and rudder skills remain fresh. I predict we will see a much higher level of focus on just this thing worldwide in the near future.
 




Old Man

Old Man

Active Member
Steve Graham said:
Hey TOM, Thanks :)
The US airlines have already taken some steps to ensure stick and rudder skills remain fresh. I predict we will see a much higher level of focus on just this thing worldwide in the near future.
Click to expand...

Yea, I'm just waiting for the day they make you guys get a tailwheel endorsement, maybe with something like a Pitts S1A.:) At that point your training will be complete.
 

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