The never ending progress and wheres good enough??CS 360 gimbal

[smartaquad]

Hi,
Im just about to purchase the CS 360 gimbal toguether with an MK board for the stab.
Of course that having a quick look around I find amazing stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lru8mkSInVg&feature=youtu.be
I need to get a proven to work well gimbal with a good board(not radians..) to stab it.
What would you guys do??
Many thanks!
:dejection::dejection:

 

[BorisS]

Hi,

If you are not under time pressure I would step back from the CS 360 gimbal with MK stab and wait what else comes out in the next 1 to 2 months concerning brushless gimbals !!!! Servo driven gimbals are just the past and if they are capable with whatever stabi to actually stay level they will not be able to smoothen out copters little jumps and wiggles.

What cam size do you want to use ?

Boris

 

[Bowley]

Why not Radians, just out of interest? you might have issues with other boards if using the Freefly servo's.

 

[smartaquad]

Hi!
Yep, thats the thing...We can wait for a couple months but it seams that B gimbals are really deer.
I will probably wait for a month or so to see what hapens. Cameras range from Sony CX series and 5D to Epics in near future.
At the moment we dont have funds for radians..
Many thanks

 

[Bowley]

Hi!
Yep, thats the thing...We can wait for a couple months but it seams that B gimbals are really deer.
I will probably wait for a month or so to see what hapens. Cameras range from Sony CX series and 5D to Epics in near future.
At the moment we dont have funds for radians..
Many thanks

Keep an eye for some good deals on used Radians. Brushless conversion on your CS is available at relatively low cost, be ok for CX and maybe 5D, but not an Epic.

 

[Bartman]

Hi,

If you are not under time pressure I would step back from the CS 360 gimbal with MK stab and wait what else comes out in the next 1 to 2 months concerning brushless gimbals !!!! Servo driven gimbals are just the past and if they are capable with whatever stabi to actually stay level they will not be able to smoothen out copters little jumps and wiggles.

What cam size do you want to use ?

Boris

Boris,

I disagree. Brushless gimbals are wonderful, I agree. Servo driven gimbals are not obsolete though. The gimbal I've designed will do just fine with anything from an NEX to the Canon 5D. Best of all, you can fly one, land, swap cameras and/or lenses and take off again. There isn't any reconfiguring of the entire mount to change things around. THat is the strength of a well designed, geared, servo driven gimbal.....flexibilty. Smooth (not lazy, just smooth) flying is a necessity but the results can be very good and certainly acceptable for video production work.

I'm also working to eliminate the need for the 3rd gimbal axis, look for that in about two to three weeks.


Bart

 

[smartaquad]

What have you there Bart?!

 

[RTRyder]

With the latest release of the Alexmos firmware you can store multiple configurations to the eprom in the controller. Land, swap cameras or lens, flip the switch on the TX to the appropriate config and fly. You can also utilize the button on the controller board to swap configs if you don't have a spare channel on the TX to do it with. Release 2.0 is also ready to go with 3 axis control, currently you need a second controller board to use it but soon there will be a second sensor board that will handle that function. I've seen video from people that have the 3rd axis working and I have to say the results are impressive, especially useful if you have a frame that tends to yaw slightly in the wind, completely removes all traces of it.

Servo driven may not be completely dead for use with very heavy loads on the platform, but with the advent of smaller and lighter cinema capable cameras like the Black Magic Pocket Cinema the end date for servo driven is in sight, brushless is the way forward IMO.

Ken

 

[Bartman]

Ken,

The gimbals are heavily dependent on balance of the motor precisely through the CG. Swapping out cameras requires everything that I've seen to be physically adjusted to optimally position the camera. Having multiple settings stored certainly helps things but going from an NEX to a 5D between flights will require the mount be reconfigured. Servo driven has no such issue, that's what 1000 oz-in of torque does for you. minimizing gear slop and eliminating freedoms of motion that contribute to jitter result in a very accommodating mount that can provide very acceptable results.

Additionally, a lot of people seem to overlook the effect of flight on their gimbals. Statically balancing a gimbal is one thing but then keeping it balanced in the face of 50 mph winds doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar. What is the effect of the force created by 50 mph winds on a brushless gimbal? It's got to create an unbalanced force that the gimbal has to adjust for. I'd guess it will burn a few motors and/or controllers.

I'm all for progress but I'm not about jumping on bandwagons and poo-pooing things that actually work pretty well. Brushless gimbals might be the way forward but, as a busy aerial media professional, they're not even close to replacing my 2-axis servo driven gimbal.

Bart

 

[Bartman]

What have you there Bart?!

Can't say just yet. Waiting on a prototype to test. If/when we get a firm delivery date for production units I'll discuss it.

Let's just say I expect it to be another option and another step forward for aerial media.

 

[RTRyder]

Ken,

The gimbals are heavily dependent on balance of the motor precisely through the CG. Swapping out cameras requires everything that I've seen to be physically adjusted to optimally position the camera. Having multiple settings stored certainly helps things but going from an NEX to a 5D between flights will require the mount be reconfigured. Servo driven has no such issue, that's what 1000 oz-in of torque does for you. minimizing gear slop and eliminating freedoms of motion that contribute to jitter result in a very accommodating mount that can provide very acceptable results.

Additionally, a lot of people seem to overlook the effect of flight on their gimbals. Statically balancing a gimbal is one thing but then keeping it balanced in the face of 50 mph winds doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar. What is the effect of the force created by 50 mph winds on a brushless gimbal? It's got to create an unbalanced force that the gimbal has to adjust for. I'd guess it will burn a few motors and/or controllers.

I'm all for progress but I'm not about jumping on bandwagons and poo-pooing things that actually work pretty well. Brushless gimbals might be the way forward but, as a busy aerial media professional, they're not even close to replacing my 2-axis servo driven gimbal.

Bart

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, after several years of working with servo driven gimbals I have to say balance is just as important on a servo drive as it is on brushless if you want it to operate optimally. Extra strong servos only mask the imbalance and ultimately use more power than would a well balanced system so I propose that while it may be possible to simply land and swap to another camera without balancing it you aren't getting the best results possible as you would if you took the time to balance each camera before flight.

As for brushless performance in windy conditions, I'll let this speak for itself. It's a tuning flight for the F/C but it does show what a cheap brushless GoPro gimbal can do to counter the effects of a not yet dialed in frame and flight controller, imagine what a well developed pro quality setup would be capable of...

Bottom line is there is a difference between working pretty well and delivering the best obtainable results every flight and the only way that can be done is by proper setup for each configuration, and yes that means taking the time to get the balance right before flight regardless of the type of gimbal/camera in use. Beyond that if you workout the balance on the bench before hand for each setup, swapping cameras or lenses on a brushless isn't the arduous task you make it out to be. I can do the swap between the 18-55mm lens on the Nex 5 to the much lighter 16mm wide angle on a brushless gimbal with proper balance in less than 5 minutes, most of that taken up by the lens swap being careful to not get any dirt on the sensor in the process.

Not poo-pooing anything, just a statement of fact, brushless deliver the best possible performance and is the way forward. I would go so far as to predict that 12 months from now it will be hard to find a pro quality gimbal that still uses servos, brushless is simply a better technology and still in it's development stages but delivering amazing results nonetheless.

Ken

 

[Bartman]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then, after several years of working with servo driven gimbals I have to say balance is just as important on a servo drive as it is on brushless if you want it to operate optimally. Extra strong servos only mask the imbalance and ultimately use more power than would a well balanced system so I propose that while it may be possible to simply land and swap to another camera without balancing it you aren't getting the best results possible as you would if you took the time to balance each camera before flight.

As for brushless performance in windy conditions, I'll let this speak for itself. It's a tuning flight for the F/C but it does show what a cheap brushless GoPro gimbal can do to counter the effects of a not yet dialed in frame and flight controller, imagine what a well developed pro quality setup would be capable of...

...............

Bottom line is there is a difference between working pretty well and delivering the best obtainable results every flight and the only way that can be done is by proper setup for each configuration, and yes that means taking the time to get the balance right before flight regardless of the type of gimbal/camera in use. Beyond that if you workout the balance on the bench before hand for each setup, swapping cameras or lenses on a brushless isn't the arduous task you make it out to be. I can do the swap between the 18-55mm lens on the Nex 5 to the much lighter 16mm wide angle on a brushless gimbal with proper balance in less than 5 minutes, most of that taken up by the lens swap being careful to not get any dirt on the sensor in the process.

Not poo-pooing anything, just a statement of fact, brushless deliver the best possible performance and is the way forward. I would go so far as to predict that 12 months from now it will be hard to find a pro quality gimbal that still uses servos, brushless is simply a better technology and still in it's development stages but delivering amazing results nonetheless.

Ken

Ken

I shot a video with just a gopro yesterday that i could probably pass off as a brushless gimbal result with a little more tuning. With that same camera mount I can put on a 5D and get very good results that would certainly be acceptable for professional use. In the time it takes to switch batteries I could switch cameras also and be back flying (there are slots on the camera tray for balancing laterally and front to back). If you're on site somewhere or need this kind of versatility there's only one choice. As for efficiency, it's not really relevant as the camera mount is using a battery that is good for 8 to 10 flights and I can shoot all day with two or three of them.

There are a lot of factors that go into these decisions. If you can isolate one or two things and really design to optimum for them, that's great. A busy day shooting and flying can be chaotic though so not having to baby sit every last little detail is beneficial if you want to keep up and be able to adapt to circumstances as quickly as possible. It just is what it is and you do what you can with what you bring with you.

Bart

 

[RTRyder]

Ken

I shot a video with just a gopro yesterday that i could probably pass off as a brushless gimbal result with a little more tuning. With that same camera mount I can put on a 5D and get very good results that would certainly be acceptable for professional use. In the time it takes to switch batteries I could switch cameras also and be back flying (there are slots on the camera tray for balancing laterally and front to back). If you're on site somewhere or need this kind of versatility there's only one choice. As for efficiency, it's not really relevant as the camera mount is using a battery that is good for 8 to 10 flights and I can shoot all day with two or three of them.

There are a lot of factors that go into these decisions. If you can isolate one or two things and really design to optimum for them, that's great. A busy day shooting and flying can be chaotic though so not having to baby sit every last little detail is beneficial if you want to keep up and be able to adapt to circumstances as quickly as possible. It just is what it is and you do what you can with what you bring with you.

Bart

Not disagreeing but everyone has different methods and viewpoints. I currently have three hex setup and ready to go at any given time, all three have brushless gimbals and all three are setup slightly different. If I know I'm going to be flying different cameras then it's already setup on one of the frames, land one, switch models in the TX and take off with the next hex/camera, no swapping of any cameras, lens, etc. just batteries. The less change you have to deal with while out in the field the better and easier things go with less chance of something going wrong after making a change. Most professionals have at least one backup, usually more if doing APV as their primary income, and it's very easy to bring them along already setup with the alternate equipment, at least that's the way I look at it and do it myself. As far as I'm concerned, every video I record must look at least as good as what I posted, hopefully better since that was just a test flight to check tuning parameters, the point being I know I'm going to get that kind of result every time regardless of the camera in use.

So as far as versatility goes, I just figure out what's needed in advance and bring it already setup and test flown with that specific setup, what could be easier and less stressful than that? No, not everyone can afford the luxury of having enough frames ready to go to cover all the bases, but if you're doing it as a profession and have only one rig flying, then you're leaving the door open for chaos to happen on every job, even something as simple as broken wire could leave you grounded and unable to get the shot.

Now we're getting way off track, so let's go back to the regularly scheduled topic and see where it goes...

Ken